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knotwindy
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Re: Eco

Postby knotwindy » Fri Nov 06, 2020 10:22 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 4:12 pm
knotwindy wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 3:50 pm
Is plastic part of the ‘petroleum’ based problem? Of course, so maybe we stop subsidizing that and then add the cost of recycling to get a much more accurate actual cost of the plastic. My guess is that if the true cost of it was passed on, there would be less used and more recovery/reuse/recycle going on. But as most have said, it’s very convoluted and complicated and none of use really knows enough to be sure of the outcome of any major changes.
No, the math is pretty easy to figure out. Recycling takes energy. Most supposed recyclable materials take more energy to recycle than pulling the raw material out of the Earth and making new materials. In certain areas there is even water cost concern with recycling, as it takes water to clean many materials prior to recycling. So if you consider all of the pollution and environmental impact, burying your trash is oftentimes a better environmental alternative. I know some people can't deal with that, but it is the truth.

As far as subsidies, they are an indication of inefficiencies. Sure you can charge more for a product so that you can afford the water and energy to recycle that product, but do you really want to increase energy output so that you can say you recycled something?
You also seem to be ignoring the fact that some of the materials are of limited quantities and need to be recycled or the whole is not sustainable. But whatever, it’s nice to at least know that the math is easy even without knowing all the variables. :jump:

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Re: Eco

Postby Saltyman » Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:02 pm

25% of the world's emissions come from cargo vessels.
That bring the containers that your gear arrives in.
So sometimes people just see a package and think non eco.
Think of how that package arrived especially the raw materials to make them.
We are a tiny proportion of the problem.
So just dispose of the packaging correctly and happy days.
Our industry is a small niche.
Compared to a company like Nike etc.
Don't worry yourself about it.
That's my take on it.

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purdyd
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Re: Eco

Postby purdyd » Sat Nov 07, 2020 3:45 am

Saltyman wrote:
Fri Nov 06, 2020 11:02 pm
25% of the world's emissions come from cargo vessels.
International maritime shipping accounted for approximately 2.1 percent of annual global greenhouse gas emissions in 2012. Container ships account for approximately 25% of that amount, while moving roughly 52% of maritime commerce by value.
Last edited by purdyd on Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:46 am, edited 2 times in total.
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BayAreaKite
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Re: Eco

Postby BayAreaKite » Sat Nov 07, 2020 2:52 pm

remember what they taught you in grade school?

REDUCE, REUSE, RECYCLE.

Reduce is the first and best alternative to recycling. If you don't need it, don't buy it. You can get into the weeds arguing about the environmental benefits of recycling, going vegetarian diet, buying electric cars, etc etc. But no one can argue with the simple alternative of consuming less of everything. Don't buy a new car, eat less, avoid non-nutritional food packaged in plastic, etc. Sadly politics will never advocate for this because economies would suffer, short term at least. In the end, the world could benefit a lot from less cheap shi% but I digress.

Then Reuse. Take good care of your stuff, resell it on eBay or Craigslist to people who would otherwise buy new cheap shi%. I save all the original packaging from my new items so that when I resell, buyers are more confident in the condition and care that was taken. We don't buy tupperware, we just use all the plastic food packaging a few times for leftovers. Reuse is easy, and fun!

THEN recycle. Not going to argue whether or not this is a good thing. But I am a materials engineer and can tell you that the amount of energy required to re-process used/dirty plastic far exceeds that which is required to use virgin plastic, which is a WASTE PRODUCT from oil refining. So again the best thing we can do is REDUCE consumption.
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Re: Eco

Postby purdyd » Sun Nov 08, 2020 1:42 am


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Re: Eco

Postby Matty V » Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:01 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 3:48 pm
StellaBlu wrote:
Wed Nov 04, 2020 11:22 pm
.... Either consumer habits change to prioritize environmental, social and other factors over cost (unlikely), or we need additional government regulation.

Let's get back on topic. What should Duotone or other kite manufactures do to actually reduce their footprint? Would you pay more for a more sustainable product? At least I think thats the point of this conversation....
Great lead in! Thanks.

Poorly thought out western government regulations are directly responsible for the global pollution problem being at least three times what it would have been had those regulations not been put in place. Was the clean up of the west worth polluting the 2nd and 3rd world with 3 times the pollution as would have been produced in the west without those regulations? Is it a good thing that this pollution was dumped in the 2nd and 3rd without any efforts to contain it? Is it fair for those people in the 2nd and 3rd world to live in the waste created there so that we could enjoy a cheaper product on the west's clean beaches, land, waters, and air?

If a company like Duotone actually wants to do something environmentally friendly, they should start making those products in the West. And not just the easy products, but the hard ones that have some serious considerations for waste disposal under Western environmental regulations. Actual environmental responsibility gives consideration to the planet, not just one's own backyard. I am with the OP in being outraged at fake environmentalism for profit, or even the environmental stupidity/short sightedness that harms the environment more than actual ill intentions.

And the "cheap oil/energy" that drives this mess at unstoppable speeds of stupidity, is the "feel good" intentions of idiot consumers.

Make products in the west? Like their kite board factory that is in Europe,

You actually mean move kite production out of Asia.

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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:02 pm

Matty V wrote:
Sun Nov 08, 2020 2:01 pm
Make products in the west? Like their kite board factory that is in Europe,

You actually mean move kite production out of Asia.
No. Indonesia, Africa, India, and nearly every other 2nd and third world country are just as bad. The only reliably environmentally responsible products are made in the west, at least relatively.

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Re: Eco

Postby Matty V » Mon Nov 09, 2020 11:47 pm

Shifting the point again

You highlighted duotone, I suggested that their boards (TT) are in fact built in Europe, or isn’t that western enough for you?

Your second point? Like Tesla I suppose? That paragon of environmental virtue...

Indonesia, Africa and India

So that’s Africa the continent? Not the the country..thats also not part of Asia or are you just lumping it all together as not being developed enough for your impeccable standards
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Re: Eco

Postby Onda » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:03 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Nov 05, 2020 7:40 pm
...We are freaking dumb!
We are not! The fcucked-up world just follows the $-machine. Very natural, very intelligent :lol:

A little detour to Germany: Here we claim to "recycle" almost all plastic waste (hence, don´t worry, dear consumer). Actually, we burn most of the stuff in waste incineration plants, which is officially defined as "energetic recycling". The heat and power from that process is actually eligibly to be marketed as "CO2-neutral" :roll:
At least burning plastic (properly) is better than shipping it to Indo and let it be dumped into the ocean there...

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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:58 pm

Onda wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 2:03 pm
At least burning plastic (properly) is better than shipping it to Indo and let it be dumped into the ocean there...
And the best part is that no one even cared about this stuff until Indonesia finally said enough! Once those barges of "so-called" recyclables were sent back to the countries of origin, then the news stories came out about the whole recycling scam.

Next up, is the wind turbine blade graveyards you can see from space! How does epoxy and fiberglass burn? Is that environmentally friendly enough to pass off as recycling into the air? Personally, I guess I'm an advocate of at least exploring dumping that stuff in the ocean if it's safe by standards today. That would stir some emotions on the left, at least until a consensus of scientists said that it was okay to dump that stuff in the ocean.

Maybe even use those old wind turbine blades as a way to store the Fukushima nuclear waste in the ocean. Wouldn't it make us all feel better if one environmental disaster could be used to slightly reduce another? Now that's talking GREEN up in here!


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