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Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:13 pm

dice wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 9:26 am
Matteo V wrote:
Tue Nov 10, 2020 3:16 pm
I commend duotone and slingshot for committing to build the easiest thing in the west under strict environmental regulations. I'm even prepared to donate one peso to each company as a reward. Starting small is good right? Then we can forgive the big things, that cause most of the pollution? But I would actually consider donating maybe $100 to each company if they would get production of the things that are actually difficult to make in the West, under those strict environmental regulations.
But you said the west is corrupt and still polluting?
The West's environmental regulations which were supposed to clean up our land Water and Air, worked. They even increased economic prosperity, by simply moving that pollution somewhere else, and knowingly doing this. The only defense against this accusation would be claiming ignorance.

The west's increased economic prosperity was a direct result of shipping industrial production to places where there were no environmental regulations. This meant that more of those products would actually be made, as demand is greater the lower the price.

The greatest Corruption of the West, with regards to environmentalism, is that we still freely and knowingly export our industrial production to second and third world countries and reap the benefits of those cheaper products. All of this occurs even while we are very much aware that this increases Global pollution by up to a factor of 3.

My suggestion is to end this corruption buy first moving industrial production back into the West, for all of its products which the West consumes. This would stop the West from exporting our industrial pollution to those places where there are no regulations and jobs are considered higher value than the poisoning of the water land and Air. Next, allow production to be once again out sourced but only two countries who have environmental regulations that are stricter than in the West. This would effectively end the corrupt nature of the environmentalist movement worldwide.

Corruption would still exist to some degree with illegal dumping. But that would be in our own backyards, and much less likely to impact the defenseless second and third world in any way close to how it does now.

So yes, the West is corrupt in the way it operates now. But that corruption is at the behest of the environmentalists, not the corporations who simply follow the rules which people and environmentalists have demanded be put in place.

Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Mon Nov 16, 2020 7:57 pm

dirk8037 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:30 am
>>Bashing on Patagonia and Arcteryx isn't productive. Those companies are WAY ahead of the curve in terms of sustainability.

I have no intention on bashing anyone.
I am not calling to buy something else or boycot them. I also do not bash Duotone, as I stated, I have resentments, mostly subjective, but at the end they have to be cretited for doing the step, as I said.

Although, greenwashing is a good term, that starts the more you brag about things that are very little. And is Arcteryx so way ahead in sustainability? Maybe I am wrong (info and links are welcome – I would be happy if am wrong and would apologize)
Greenwashing, as in the term, fails to put it in perspective to your average person. No credit should be given to any company who doesn't do something that actually solves the problem. In every single case of a company going green, at best they should possibly get a participation trophy. Because that is what they are doing, not actually winning the fight in any way. What they are doing is getting credit for showing up. If Society is truly at a point where a participation trophy is looked at as actually winning the game, then we are so screwed, that nothing matters.


dirk8037 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:30 am
I write that because in the meantime thoughts went through my mind and with all things we do we have to die at least one death and I thing true stustainability is a big thing. I starts with the individual, I do not expect from any one to do as I do. But having in the first Theta for 8 years I rate that higher than some chemicals. And then I still think they and any other company have to thrive and with the next one (in maybe 5Y) I will be probably more critical in my purchasing behaviour than 5 years ago.

Especially those companies have a big responsibility and I expect to live up to that, And the also have the power.
Sustainability in a growing population is virtually impossible. No matter what percentage you reduce your pollution or carbon footprint, there is an overall increase with the population anyway. The math works out that if you half individual impact, but double the population, you're still polluting the same amount as when you started.



dirk8037 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:30 am
No, focussing on trafic or food does not mean that everything else has to be ignored.
For me I came to the conclusion that a wholistic change of attitude and behaviour is needed.
Any change in behavior, even the most drastic, IS USELESS if it doesn't solve the problem. But even worse than that, is the fact that many actions such as a drastic change in one's Behavior, shift the focus away from whether or not the problem is actually being solved. Thus the little things that we do, can make us ignore the reality of the issue, and allow that problem to continue unchecked more so then if we never took the action to change our behavior in the first place.



dirk8037 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:30 am
We can plant trees, buy e-cars, half our flying are we then allowed to waste everything and overfish the 7 seas?
Yes, we may continue to waste everything and over fish the Seven Seas if we just ride a bike to work, because riding a bike is a greater emotional sacrifice. Please note I say this sarcastically to point out how destructive the idea that "little things, actually solve problems", is.



dirk8037 wrote:
Mon Nov 16, 2020 12:30 am
In an interview with an Indian UNO counsellor on Paris treaty and general eco stuff he stated clearly that there is no way on approaching the majority of his people to make sacrifices for an abstract threat when the see that we are flying around the world for fun and disposing our wast around the world.
And even if you actually do get the propaganda across to the people, someone somewhere like me will do the math and point out the plan is not going to solve the problem anyway. So who would you rather have be responsible for environmentally destructive environmental initiatives going down the tubes? The people? Or the very few, who like me, are willing to dig deeper and do the math and examine history to understand where we are going.

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Re: Eco

Postby happytrees » Tue Nov 17, 2020 1:23 am


Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Tue Nov 17, 2020 9:09 pm

Nice! Have you dumped lots of money into that startup. I saved that website (cached) along with "solar roadways" so that I can make a quick buck if I ever decide to skip the country.

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Re: Eco

Postby TomW » Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm

Its been said here multiple times. To save the planet we have to stop consuming so much stuff. That includes everything.
Many people fear communism, socialism etc. But what we should fear the most is consumerism. We are all in the grip of consumerism.
Most of us go to our meaninglessness jobs, and to quell the depression of that and to reward ourselves we buy stuff.

I work for huge company in product development, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that if the consumers start " not buying" the shit we make now, and " start buying " only products with a more sustainable approach, then the companies will go that way.
Its also necessary for governments to regulate and force companies to be sustainable. And they will only do that if you refuse to vote for those politicians that don't.

If we continue to buy the cheapest, vote for politicians that drive for "economic growth" buy deregulation we are basically doomed.

Before you flame me, I admit I'm no better than anyone else.
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Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Sun Nov 22, 2020 5:40 am

TomW wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm
Its been said here multiple times.
!



TomW wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm
Many people fear communism, socialism etc. But what we should fear the most is consumerism. We are all in the grip of consumerism.
Communism and socialism is not feared, but rather the totalitarianism, genocide, democide that seems inseparable from it.



TomW wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm
I work for huge company in product development, and I can tell you with 100% certainty that if the consumers start " not buying" the shit we make now, and " start buying " only products with a more sustainable approach, then the companies will go that way.
But does that solve the problem, or create a bigger one? If sustainability is recycling everything, then what about the additional pollution created by recycling things that take more energy to recycle? What about the additional freshwater used to recycle?



TomW wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm
Its also necessary for governments to regulate and force companies to be sustainable. And they will only do that if you refuse to vote for those politicians that don't.
Yes, government will solve the problems for us if we just put a certain party in office........ under 20-year-olds may believe this, but over 20-year-olds are aware of the dismal success rate that this idea has at actually solving problems.



TomW wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm
If we continue to buy the cheapest, vote for politicians that drive for "economic growth" buy deregulation we are basically doomed.
There is no party you can vote for that has any plans, or ability, to change the growth based banking system to a system that can function in economic decline. Even "green jobs" are being sold as a way to increase growth, create new jobs, and sustain more immigration. Any party advocating the opposite of growth is marginalized because there is no money AND no power in it.



TomW wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 4:57 pm
Its been said here multiple times. To save the planet we have to stop consuming so much stuff. That includes everything.
If we could somehow half the pollution that each one of the 8billion people on earth produce, it would still have ZERO effect when the population doubles to 16billion.

This is the problem with the "feel good" environmentalism that plagues the west. While our need to believe we are doing good is being satiated, the problem still grows.

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Re: Eco

Postby knotwindy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:15 pm

Not to worry, whether we are capable of voluntary change or not, overpopulation is a self-limiting problem.
Although humans may not like the outcome.

Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Sun Nov 22, 2020 6:43 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 3:15 pm
Not to worry, whether we are capable of voluntary change or not, overpopulation is a self-limiting problem.
Although humans may not like the outcome.
Any thoughts on how the environment will like an overpopulation of humans?

And what do you think will be the environmental impact of "desperately trying to survive humans", reaching the tipping point of their population collapse?


Environmentalism is diametrically opposed human population growth, REGARDLESS of whether we can live the lie of "carbon neutrality" and "100% recycled" goods.

No environmental restrictions can solve the numbers problem of population with a finite amount of space when time is considered. Thus, just like politics, the environmental movement is a scam created by those motivated to profit from selling the people the story they are desperate to hear.

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Re: Eco

Postby knotwindy » Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:36 pm

Yes, bla blah blah.....
Any species that grows into overpopulation reaches the same self-limiting endpoint. From the view point of the species it is never pretty. From the viewpoint of the planet it is just what happens. It cycles, a available food decreases, population drops, repeat until extinction happens. No biggie except for the specific species and the predators of them. And since we have tried like hell to remove ourselves from the food chain, it’s just us fools that see it as a problem. There are simple natural ‘laws’ that a species must follow to survive. We have chosen not to follow them. Oops, oh well, guess what’s next...

Matteo V
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Re: Eco

Postby Matteo V » Mon Nov 23, 2020 3:05 am

knotwindy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:36 pm
Yes, bla blah blah.....
Interesting anecdote.



knotwindy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:36 pm
Any species that grows into overpopulation reaches the same self-limiting endpoint. From the view point of the species it is never pretty. From the viewpoint of the planet it is just what happens. It cycles, a available food decreases, population drops, repeat until extinction happens. No biggie except for the specific species and the predators of them.
First off, it is not the same. Our limiting endpoint is unique to the point of being unnatural. Or rather, nearly never before seen in the natural 4 billion year history of the planet, has a species dictated the future of the planet to the degree humanity will. Maybe four to six times, in the course of 4 billion years.

It is true that the planet cycles, but population "drop" is what saves a species in many cases, though occasionally it does precipitate an extinction.

As far as the "no biggie", yes it is most definitely a "biggie". Likely, it is the great filter itself, staring down the "deer caught in the headlights" look supposedly intelligent life always stares back at such, with.



knotwindy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:36 pm
And since we have tried like hell to remove ourselves from the food chain, it’s just us fools that see it as a problem.
Only a fool confined to a limited resource such as planet earth, would fail to see the idea (ideology) of us being removed from the food chain as a "problem". Maybe I have just elaborated your point, or maybe your point has been elaborated upon.



knotwindy wrote:
Sun Nov 22, 2020 10:36 pm
There are simple natural ‘laws’ that a species must follow to survive. We have chosen not to follow them. Oops, oh well, guess what’s next...
No one knows what's next, that is the unknown. Not a comfortable thought, is it?


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