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Another UK Fatality

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ichabod
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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby ichabod » Sat Nov 21, 2020 2:54 pm

I've seen waist belt PFDs used for SUP e.g

https://www.escape-watersports.co.uk/eq ... bkEALw_wcB

Has anyone tried one of these kiting? guess it would have to sit above the harness or something

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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby deniska » Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:55 pm

I have a similar belt vest.
I only put it on in serious conditions (below waist harness). No idea if it would help a lot or not.
It should in principle but I keep it as last resort.
The bad thing is that since it has Velcros it semi opens after a crash and does not look as neat as on the pics.

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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby UKSurf » Sat Nov 21, 2020 5:14 pm

deniska wrote:
Sat Nov 21, 2020 3:55 pm
I have a similar belt vest.
I only put it on in serious conditions (below waist harness). No idea if it would help a lot or not.
It should in principle but I keep it as last resort.
The bad thing is that since it has Velcros it semi opens after a crash and does not look as neat as on the pics.
I think the extra floatation would help, my own experience of being trapped in heavy surf is it takes alot of effort to stay on the surface breathing. Exhaustion and panic sets in very quickly when you realise you are helpless and trapped by currents and endless sets of powerful waves - this is when extra floatation could save your life in my opinion. Only negative would be you will find it harder to dive under big waves. I cant imagine what being trapped in bindings you cant get off and being pummelled by waves would feel like, and if that is what happened here then others should learn from this tragedy.

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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby Kerplow » Sat Nov 21, 2020 6:19 pm

2 Days ago a guy died kiting in Lithuania. RIP Giedrius.
They still don't know what exactly happened, but it seems that he had heart attack. He just collapsed during a session :/

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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby RickI » Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:19 pm

I am sorry to hear of both fatalities, strength to their family and friends. It is terrible hear.

Unless it is a special case, I wouldn't recommend kiters use inflatable belt PFDs. There are intrinsic PFDs that are in place and work whenever needed and those that require manipulation, donning, inflation to work. In an emergency particularly in cold water, you really want the flotation without delay or thought, screwing around or possible problems. Throw in breaking waves, line tangles, high current, looping kite, etc. etc. and life may get too interesting to even manage properly activating an inflatable belt PFD. Plus, the intrinsic PFD's also add some warmth and a place to secure your Keys in some cases. Given the frequency of strong water impacts, Type I PFD's that float you automatically head up, come with risks if they use a neck flotation collar. Impact vests have a lot to offer, aside from NOT automatically floating you head up. They are less bulky, may provide superior impact protection to ribs than Type I PFD's. I have used the NP High Hook aid for over a decade with good results. There are still other products out there in the way of intrinsic vests worth considering. Going without any flotation aid, is a bad idea which may come back to bite you in a severe way some unlucky day.
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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby deniska » Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:50 pm

RickI wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:19 pm
I am sorry to hear of both fatalities, strength to their family and friends. It is terrible hear.

Unless it is a special case, I wouldn't recommend kiters use inflatable belt PFDs. There are intrinsic PFDs that are in place and work whenever needed and those that require manipulation, donning, inflation to work. In an emergency particularly in cold water, you really want the flotation without delay or thought, screwing around or possible problems. Throw in breaking waves, line tangles, high current, looping kite, etc. etc. and life may get too interesting to even manage properly activating an inflatable belt PFD. Plus, the intrinsic PFD's also add some warmth and a place to secure your Keys in some cases. Given the frequency of strong water impacts, Type I PFD's that float you automatically head up, come with risks if they use a neck flotation collar. Impact vests have a lot to offer, aside from NOT automatically floating you head up. They are less bulky, may provide superior impact protection to ribs than Type I PFD's. I have used the NP High Hook aid for over a decade with good results. There are still other products out there in the way of intrinsic vests worth considering. Going without any flotation aid, is a bad idea which may come back to bite you in a severe way some unlucky day.
I don't completely agree..
Proper PFDs are just that they keep you afloat and are terrible for swimming and bodydragging...
Many self rescue scenarios rely on active swimming or bodydragging..
What good that PFD, if it slowed you down in the swim against current and you got pushed out into open ocean?
Will they find you in time? who knows..
or if you could not get your board back cause you get worse angles while bodydragging? and the list goes on..
Can you do board offs in one?
now, inflatable belt is not that intrusive during your kiting and self-rescue up to the point when you decide to actually use it as all other options are exhausted.

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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby RickI » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:46 am

Impact vests (similar to or in some cases actual Type III PFDs) have been used very widely in kiting for over 20 years. Twenty years ago, we asked similar questions to what you are asking but not so much these days. There isn't much theory left at this point. They work, have low drag, bulk and might even save you from dinging a rib with a spreader bar or even a torso bashing on a powered, bad jump landing. They don't have a lot of flotation unlike the bulkier, cumbersome Type I PFDs, but they can make all the difference if you are injured, exhausted or just need to stop treading water for a while. This is the one I've used since 2006. I've been out with it in all weathers and have had to swim considerable distances, largely back in the day fortunately with it. There are lots of other impact vest designs to consider as well. We have had too many kiters die over the years from drowning when in some cases an impact vest might have made an important difference.

Image
https://tinyurl.com/y3t4sn7q

Regarding the belt PFD, I have used them for SUP paddling since 2007 and have picked up five of them over the years. My wife races and I have a couple in there too. I have never used one while kiting, I wouldn't want to as I have said. Checkout the video and ask yourself, how well this would workout in an emergency, perhaps waves, fatigue, hypothermia, being blocked by your lines in your harness hook, etc.. If you mount this below your spreader bar, you need to unhook, hold your bar/kite with one hand while passing the PFD over your head with the other hand. If you mount it above the spreader bar, it may be too high above a waist harness to stay on, may be blocked by the chickenloop. The thing about emergency gear is you have to figure it out and practice with it for real, before the emergency. It would not be good to find the concept didn't work very well in the context of a crisis.

Watch this video and then imagine doing this with the vest underwater in a crisis with the bar, lines kite flying potentially in the way with whatever else might be going on.


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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby Matty V » Sat Nov 28, 2020 8:57 am

Not sure the discussion about doing board off practicality vs pdf vs inflato belt really has its place in this thread.

Poor bloke has died, have a bit of respect and if you and Rick want to get into it start a new thread.
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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby longwhitecloud » Sat Nov 28, 2020 11:53 am

deniska wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 7:50 pm
RickI wrote:
Fri Nov 27, 2020 5:19 pm
I am sorry to hear of both fatalities, strength to their family and friends. It is terrible hear.

Unless it is a special case, I wouldn't recommend kiters use inflatable belt PFDs. There are intrinsic PFDs that are in place and work whenever needed and those that require manipulation, donning, inflation to work. In an emergency particularly in cold water, you really want the flotation without delay or thought, screwing around or possible problems. Throw in breaking waves, line tangles, high current, looping kite, etc. etc. and life may get too interesting to even manage properly activating an inflatable belt PFD. Plus, the intrinsic PFD's also add some warmth and a place to secure your Keys in some cases. Given the frequency of strong water impacts, Type I PFD's that float you automatically head up, come with risks if they use a neck flotation collar. Impact vests have a lot to offer, aside from NOT automatically floating you head up. They are less bulky, may provide superior impact protection to ribs than Type I PFD's. I have used the NP High Hook aid for over a decade with good results. There are still other products out there in the way of intrinsic vests worth considering. Going without any flotation aid, is a bad idea which may come back to bite you in a severe way some unlucky day.
I don't completely agree..
Proper PFDs are just that they keep you afloat and are terrible for swimming and bodydragging...
Many self rescue scenarios rely on active swimming or bodydragging..
What good that PFD, if it slowed you down in the swim against current and you got pushed out into open ocean?
Will they find you in time? who knows..
or if you could not get your board back cause you get worse angles while bodydragging? and the list goes on..
Can you do board offs in one?
now, inflatable belt is not that intrusive during your kiting and self-rescue up to the point when you decide to actually use it as all other options are exhausted.

Wave closeouts are maximum 5-7 seconds hold down and that is real bad ones.... huge waves Imo people often drown from panic.. running out of energy very very quickly fighting instead of relaxing as they are smashed in the impact zone or just wasting going backwards fighting rips or sweeps. Getting wrapped in lines in a kite specific complication to consider. Imo the most dangerous kite waveriding is in huge waves with moderate winds. There is no sense in saying floatation isnt going to help unless you are dealing with a super unluckly situation where you cannot dive out the way of lines wrapping around you.. but even a harness/wetsuit floatation makes this very very hard. .. maybe not even possible.

Keep a level head, understand and be highly experienced the surf zone or you shoildnt be there ( be an experienced surfer/ clubbie) and make good decisions.. it is sometimes easy to get out on a kite with really big swells but you have to have a plan and train for not having your kite in the air any longer... also having a higher level attitude of not f=%%ing up in the first place is vital.

Not making any comment on this poor guy just advice from a lot of riding in very big waves.

Like mentioned before, surfers are not drowning as much as they used to at big wave spots... due to floatation.

But these can have 4 gas bottles and inflation sections per wetsuit.

I wouldnt trust this belt not to rip/ fail to inflate/ burst in big surf as i see it.

Be careful giving advice about pfds inhibiting progress against rips/ currents/ sweeps and getting carried out to sea.

This is not what children learn that live in countries with real surf dangers are taught by 100 years+ of established surf life saving clubs.

8 year olds here can recognise rips sweeps and currents and avoid going all. Know they are not going to get washed out to sea, just tonthe back of the impact zone ( unless estuary outgoingtide)) and that the idea of swimming faster to get back to shore against currents is one of the worst pieces of advice you can generally give.

Do a surf live saving course.

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Re: Another UK Fatality

Postby purdyd » Sat Nov 28, 2020 4:03 pm

Tragic to hear.

As I understand it virtually every big wave surfer now wears an inflatable vest as already mentioned. It would be nice to see something designed like that specifically for kite boarding.

And for pros to use it. Nothing like setting a fashion trend from the top down.


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