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Kit is becoming too expensive

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Havre
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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby Havre » Thu Dec 10, 2020 9:13 pm

Bikes are generally speaking quite interesting in terms of pricing. Most carbon frames are made in China in the same factories. Then they are branded later - often with quite extreme price differences that cannot be justify by any sort of objective measure when it comes to material quality.

Design of the frame might differ in quality of course. But like with kites these changes are very often incremental based on an existing design. If someone sold the rights to produce and sell the Switchblade 2018 as cost efficient as possible that kite would be ridiculously cheap and perfect for what - 99% of all kiters? Not arguing that would be the best model for the kiting industry as some of the money obviously goes to develop kites further, but bikes is an interesting comparison as you got so much more to choose from - and as soon as you reach a floor somewhere around 500-1000* usd the rest is basically performance and marketing. On a road bike anything above 1000 usd is basically just like buying a rolex instead of a casio. They both tell time equally well, but if you want (and can afford) a rolex buy one for all I care.

For kites it isn't like Ozone is selling a cheap kite and something more fancy. There is a small price difference between different kites, but those are marginal compared to what you see with the mentioned bikes.

* for some type of bikes you might argue it will cost you more than 1000 usd for a good model, but those are the marginal full suspended bikes for very specific use I would argue.

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive PART ONE

Postby Matteo V » Thu Dec 10, 2020 11:02 pm

Baptiste_FR wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:26 pm
Rou Chatter wrote a very very interesting analysis last year about the subject
https://www.iksurfmag.com/articles/issu ... -kitesurf/

According to him, the low prices of kites on the second hand market is killing the brands and encourage them to increase the price.
Hilarious article! I am a huge fan of this type of absurd stupidity. The whole main idea proposed in the article is that us kiteboaders (consumers) are "doing the free market wrong".

Honestly I have to admit that I have a similarly absurd, but opposite idea. I have always thought, and still think, that we are paying too much for used and closeout kites.

Bottom line is that as an aggregate, kiters understand the value of the gear they buy and sell. Your average used seller is looking for someone willing to pay too much, and buyers are looking for a "better deal". New buyers can be seemingly more complex with a wide range of mentalities. On the top end, you have those looking to flaunt how much they can spend on the latest and greatest. In the middle, you have those that try to get a dealership or sponsorship so they can actually afford to flaunt their new kites. On the low end, you have those looking to have the latest and greatest for just a few months at the end of the season. It all boils down to percieved value of form vs function.

More to come.......
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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby downunder » Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:12 am

Havre wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm
And all the big ones know if the drop prices they will struggle to bring them up back again.

I wonder how close kiting is to saturation. I have been to spots like Tarifa, Cape Town, Cabarete, Cumbuco (parts of the beach - certainly not the whole beach) etc. which are at times extremely crowded. Not suggesting we are there yet, but there is clearly a point where people can't be bothered travelling around the world to be waiting in line to kite.

To me it seems like the sport is still growing. Hard to evaluate of course, but anecdotally I see new people all the time in Norway. But the growth might be slowing down - wouldn't know. Also even here in one of the richest countries in the world affording to buy kites is a stretch financially for a fairly significant % of the population. Most could find a way if they are highly motivated, but as a occasional thing you do when you got 3 kids etc. - then many just wouldn't be willing to spend the money you got to spend for the equipment. Not to mention all the other costs driving to spots, travelling abroad etc.
I do not think its growing in sales. No. It is almost impossible to see a brand new kite on my local. Only big foils can be seen as brand new. And we have a huge number of kiters in my state. Other states probably have less.

In Croatia, there is insignificant number of kiters. With 1200 islands and n-km of cost line. They just can't afford it even tho they have a top rider like Martin Dolenc.

It is the turists who crowd the places like Viganj, Bol, Neretva, etc. I'm guessing the same is in CT, and the places you've mentioned. As for Perth, the lack of turists is very obvious this year.

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby Havre » Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:40 am

downunder wrote:
Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:12 am
Havre wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:05 pm
And all the big ones know if the drop prices they will struggle to bring them up back again.

I wonder how close kiting is to saturation. I have been to spots like Tarifa, Cape Town, Cabarete, Cumbuco (parts of the beach - certainly not the whole beach) etc. which are at times extremely crowded. Not suggesting we are there yet, but there is clearly a point where people can't be bothered travelling around the world to be waiting in line to kite.

To me it seems like the sport is still growing. Hard to evaluate of course, but anecdotally I see new people all the time in Norway. But the growth might be slowing down - wouldn't know. Also even here in one of the richest countries in the world affording to buy kites is a stretch financially for a fairly significant % of the population. Most could find a way if they are highly motivated, but as a occasional thing you do when you got 3 kids etc. - then many just wouldn't be willing to spend the money you got to spend for the equipment. Not to mention all the other costs driving to spots, travelling abroad etc.
I do not think its growing in sales. No. It is almost impossible to see a brand new kite on my local. Only big foils can be seen as brand new. And we have a huge number of kiters in my state. Other states probably have less.

In Croatia, there is insignificant number of kiters. With 1200 islands and n-km of cost line. They just can't afford it even tho they have a top rider like Martin Dolenc.

It is the turists who crowd the places like Viganj, Bol, Neretva, etc. I'm guessing the same is in CT, and the places you've mentioned. As for Perth, the lack of turists is very obvious this year.
Perth might be a fairly mature market?

Personally I cannot understand how so many can actually afford to buy equipment. Norway is a small outlier in the world with oil and gas money as well as a huge "middle class" (wealth is fairly evenly distributed). Even so the investment is significant if you are getting new gear every 2-3 years. I would say that rarely happens unless you are among the top 2-3% most active kiters.

I don't know how the growth rate is here in terms of new kiters, but definitely a change from 20 years back when kiting on water was more or less limited to the South West coast. Now on good days spots outside Oslo are if not "full" so very well visited. When I took my first lessons in 2014 (I believe) I had hardly heard of the sport. It was a friend of mine that suggested we could learn on holiday in the Philippines. These days I would say most people in Oslo know what kiting is. How many of those with knowledge have then decided to test it out (or not)? I don't know. And how many of those are not getting in to it because of the cost? Certainly some, but I don't know how many. And I could imagine as you say from Croatia that would be a much bigger hurdle for the average person than here.

To compare with bikes again. If you are curious about biking you can get a bike that will give you 99% (or maybe 95%) of the "experience" at a small fraction of the cost of the really top end equipment. So, like me, you start out with a cheap bike to see if this is something that gives longer term sense. Then when you realize this is worth saving up for etc. people tend to buy more expensive bikes. You can go that route with kites as well of course, but then it would be 2nd hand. Which adds uncertainty for the inexperienced buyer. A bit of a paradox that 2nd hand works best for the experienced riders who in many cases want the newest equipment - as they might actually benefit from the small small changes you see from year to year.

I would be shocked if we don't see huge changes at some point. A bit like you had x number of electric cars that didn't succeed - before Tesla finally found a way.

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby Kitemenn » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:06 am

Baptiste_FR wrote:
Thu Dec 10, 2020 3:26 pm
Rou Chatter wrote a very very interesting analysis last year about the subject
https://www.iksurfmag.com/articles/issu ... -kitesurf/

According to him, the low prices of kites on the second hand market is killing the brands and encourage them to increase the price.

It's a long article but a must read !
It's a nice read but the assumptions are actually wild guesses. Come on 1 year kites being sold for 40%...well at least not where I live. Also the live span of a kite being 2-3 seasons is highly underestimated. Not even talking about 50% sell out at the end of the season on new stuf. Please tell me where!

Also quotes like "These smaller brands can make the larger brands pricing seem crazy, but I do believe you get what you pay for in terms of build quality and after-sales service" are opposite of what I see in NL for example with brands like Ventum/Fluid showing the best possible service to their own but also other customers (haven't seen much more commited guys tbh)

In my view prices full retail are insane...that forces the retailers to give price cuts to buyers (esp in bigger quantities or end of season). This ofcourse affects 2nd hand market as you cannot price above this reduced price. But basically its the same as a car, the minute you take a new one for a ride thats where you will have the biggest write off. This is less with 2nd hand! Kite quality nowadays is great and allows for many years of use...

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby downunder » Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:28 am

We are forgetting that almost all kites are made in the same factory.

And 20 years ago they did not have automated process, robots and circular pattern sewing machines like today.

All this should make it more affordable than before.

The bars particularly are not that labour intensive. How long takes to assemble one bar? Under 30 mins. Again, the sewing machines are ultra fast, custom made.

One guy here makes custom race bars. Still charging like crazy. With no release.

Ive made 3 bars for myself. Using Cab lines from 2009, still great. Cant see any benefits of new bars, only the soft bar ends maybe :)

Thats life.

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby Robsw6 » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:41 am

LOL... reminds me of an old mate who knew a brand owner who at the time manufactured in Sri Lanka & to my shock, he told me the prices out the factory door - lets say there's margin there. But nothing compared to the high end car industry - where a carbon chassis can cost EUR 4.5k, for a retail of EUR 70k. - so a multiplier of appx x8.5 for kites is a bargain !

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby longwhitecloud » Fri Dec 11, 2020 11:45 am

China labour rates... huge increases.

Kite companies making kiting over complex.. many are the same companies that f=_ed up windsurfing like this too.

Proprietary parts.. useless

Planned obscelesence .. bladder delamination

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby Matty V » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:24 pm

think margins are fat? go start a brand.

sorry any twat can start a brand, but actually start one from scratch not buying in outside design or tech and see how easy it is...

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Re: Kit is becoming too expensive

Postby NotsoShort » Fri Dec 11, 2020 12:28 pm

Out of interest how many kites are sold after a learner goes through a kite school. Where I am in the UK there are a lot of kites schools. 10 years ago I would see a lot of the people then buy kites and progress. Nowadays I still see a good number of people go through the kite schools but the kite area does not fill up as much as it did with newbies. 10 years ago I counted 130 kites in my local spot. Now it’s usually 40 on a busy day


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