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Carbon vs Wood made boards

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Matty V
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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby Matty V » Mon Dec 28, 2020 7:16 pm

Boards are for someone else so stickers/paint job as requested by the end users, no 100% not a factory board

The only person speed sailing for core of any standing has his boards done by Phil Carbon in France and they are all customs anyway, the only brand with ‘factory’ gear is Fone

The two striped boards have full thickness boxes built Into the boards

The others have the top cut off the box the main part laminated in place then the top sealed down

Thinner tail and flex can be built in even with fully wrapped carbon rails;-)
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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby dirk8037 » Tue Dec 29, 2020 1:32 pm

Hi,
I think some people here need to sort out their lives - arguing about such unimportant things with such emotions.
Respect to Mateo still continuing with objectivity and calm.

Fluidity - yes its all marketing - this is a funsport.
Core is the Porsche, basically ridden by few that really can get the best out of it and many more dentists and alikes.

If you really want some one to tell you that your performance gain with a carbon board will be 17.5% then you better stick with Triathlon.
Buy tiny pots of grease for 100$ that will reduce your chain restance and save 4 Watts.

But here....
There could be an aproximation.
Carbon has a better reflex (thats why windsurf masts).
So if you edge for jumping and bend it, then release there will be an increased pop you feel.
If this pop really will propell you higher you could maybe test invitro behind a boat on the rope and some tool to meassure your hight of jumps.
Do that 20 x with a similar FG and CF shape you might meassure some difference.
You migth even calculate it. Compare rebound forces of the fibers and put them in relation with the forces you put into the board when edging.
I predict you will end up with an astoundigly low percentage value nut when you step on the board you will be propably surprised how much the feeling changes despite the low %.
And then you might like it or not.... and have to decide if its worth the buck.

Although I fear that in real life, technique must be adapted to its different behaviour and if the board shape is still valid after the change of the fiber - i do not think so.
Have a look at the core Shape (Carved´s production line). They trade the loss of flex with increased rocker. Seam to work since tests of the fusion are really good. But you still have to like it!
I think the whole discussion is pointless. Does the better car ot watch give you messerable improvements?

I really enjoy though the discussion on the plain mechanics. Most of the things I knew already since they are old discussions. So only for those similar minded, I got some question marks are left.

Most of the arguments from engineers are naturally theoretically right.
They apply most likely to parts exposed to static forces - plane wings, windmill blades, car parts maybe.
The windsurfnast have teh advantage that they meassure 4m+ therefore the bend destributes and the load is somewhat limited to the wight of teh surfer.
But do they for the bump and jump application of TTs? Especialliall takeing the kook in us in account.

On the tensile side it is clear - tensile strength and max enlongation are well published and all the examples are about that.
Though I do not find anything on the max compression of CF and laminates in general.
Does anybody has numbers.
All I know is the fact that the thicker the better.
Take a piece of paper and a 2mm cardboard and push on both sides.
It is obvious.

Many DIYer suggest an identical layup on top and bottom.
So 350gr of CF might be sufficiant for riding and carving and some jumps?
But the safety margin of misusage like flat landings, punctuall contacts are thin.
Here also things like adhession to the core etc come in place.
(thats also why grindbases - insurance against kookish weekend worriors like me and you)
With the vast discripancy of elasticity between woodcore and CF, i guess, there are simply limits.

Here I think the mix might be valid.
200 gr Glass will cost wight but thickens up the laminate and therefore its strength. If you put the CF below you gain some ding resistance.
As stated earlier, to prevent the same drama while landing flat you will also have to thicken up the bottom.
BCOMP promotes the combi of flachs and CF with that. Flach has low density but thickens the laminate more that FG

Same with torsional flex. You want more without compromising the longitudal flex. Take for example less FG on 45degree or even overall wth 1/10 mm more thickness and some diagonal CF UD Tapes. The CF will here hardly fail since it is not the main load direction and not that much of bend.

An other thing is, that many state that you waste all the pros of CF when on 45 or 33dgr and the main load is on 90.

There used to be a tool of R+G called Lamicense.
It plottetd graphs of strength according to the layup.
0/90 Cloth had a pattern like a 4leaf blossom with dents in 45 direction.
Again also here some argue to take CF on 45 and FG on 90. I think even Core did or does.

Happy new Year and stay healthy
Dirk
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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby downunder » Tue Dec 29, 2020 4:12 pm

Matty V wrote:
Mon Dec 28, 2020 11:08 am
My work..

Not sure what you are hoping to gain by seeing boards I have built but hey.
Exactly what I was hoping for.

No TT in sight. And I did not see a wrapped rails on a TT ever. So really have no idea from where is this info coming from.

ABS for rails? No, its PU.
Wrapped rails? False on TT.
Topsheet is not a grindbase as u call it. Snowboards have a grind base - because its grinded, correct? Its Ptex, topsheet is not.
Topsheet is made by two main guys: Crown and IsoSport in Austria. Duotone makes boards there.
Carbon used is biax. Not triax.

Even visible carbon on your board is biax. Cheap as chips when buying in bulk. U could use a wide squares tho, sells better.

And so on ....

All together, cftt are profit makers with questionable benefits. Why? Because most of them are cheaply made, with one single CF layer.

If tomorrow CF price goes on by 200%, ppl would still buy it. Good for them. I will probably still jump higher with my 120cm wood core TT.

Not covinced? Ask Toby how he jumps with FS Radical board. That is the answer. The rest is theory which is very fluid, to many variables.

To conclude, with one single CF layer it is impossible to claim benefits of carbon. Only if is fully wrappef like Bro boards (iBeam, not wrapped rails), but wast TTs are not! Not a single one. Hence no idea how can we claim CF this or that. Sure its stiffer, but only that. Build with FG and will be stiff too. But heavy.

I mean the fishing rod is built by many layers.
Windsurfing mast is many layers wrapped in a few different degrees (have it in my shed). Plus, its different diameter - wider near the board. How on Earth can we compare this with a TT?

Again, skis have minimum 4 triax layers! Thats 300g/m triax. Plus core, plus....

Anyways..

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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby Matty V » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:06 pm

You are telling me what boards I built are made of?

I also never claimed I built TT boards

At the risk of making you a prick I will take a pic/video of the triax carbon still on the roll

The checks are textreme carbon and as said previously purely cosmetic

Then again you will accuse it of being faked ..

Oh while you are in the business of critiquing others work let’s see yours... or are you shy?

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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby PinkDuotonePride » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:50 pm

Matty V wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:06 pm
You are telling me what boards I built are made of?
:lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby Matty V » Tue Dec 29, 2020 5:52 pm

Oh look it’s three layer “biax” with a ply of unidirectional running through it...
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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby kostantin » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:00 pm

Hi,

I have both, popcorn and beer ready for tonight. Let the games begin.

I made this one around 2015 for my girlfriend. Carbon TT's give you a totally different ride, if the shaper knows what he is doing.


Image

Matty V
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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby Matty V » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:11 pm

Very nice, just waiting for DU to tell you that you don’t know what you built it from :lol: :lol:

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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby Matteo V » Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:57 pm

Good free industry publication.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... 9261659929

I was unaware, prior to reading this, that Dyneema/Spectra has the same issues with compression loading as Kevlar.

General impact strength chart is on page 26.

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Re: Carbon vs Wood made boards

Postby Matteo V » Tue Dec 29, 2020 7:09 pm

kostantin wrote:
Tue Dec 29, 2020 6:00 pm
Hi,

I have both, popcorn and beer ready for tonight. Let the games begin.

I made this one around 2015 for my girlfriend. Carbon TT's give you a totally different ride, if the shaper knows what he is doing.


Image
Nice!

How did you select the shape?

How many trys did it take to get to it?

Ever made the same shape in glass?

Break any?


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