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haiku
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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby haiku » Fri Jan 22, 2021 6:43 pm

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 5:33 pm
:baby:
Havre wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 3:32 pm
A lot of things happening these days. Not much of it good - even if I would consider it fairly predictable:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1213566.shtml

"More than 12,400 in Israel were reportedly infected after accepting Pfizer's COVID-19 vaccine, which led to doubts over the vaccine's efficacy, despite the reported 95 percent efficacy in Phase III clinical trials."

Early days - and not many of those had gotten the second shot - so will not conclude on anything yet.

Interesting though how companies like Pfizer are now seen as reliable while they not that long ago where considered villains:

"Pfizer has been a “habitual offender,” persistently engaging in illegal and corrupt marketing practices, bribing physicians and suppressing adverse trial results. Since 2002 the company and its subsidiaries have been assessed $3 billion in criminal convictions, civil penalties and jury awards."

That was written in 2010.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/21532766/

To question companies like Pfizer in 2010 was probably the "norm" - that is to say no-one would throw "QAnon" at you for saying that Pfizer and the like might not be the most "moral" of companies. Today you are quickly becoming a "loonie" for even mentioning anything that might question any statement or "data" from companies like Pfizer.

And lastly, something which apparently is not possibe:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... cine-fears

"A study by South African scientists into the new coronavirus variant driving a resurgence of cases in the country raises concern about the efficacy of vaccines and a new class of therapies."

Obviously nothing conclusive on any of it so far. Other than Pfizer being corrupt (which doesn't automatically mean the "vaccine" they have made is bad).
The mind of a leftie is extremely malleable. The narrative, or the daily changes to it, do not matter.

Not to mention, any injection would be believed effective against a disease that has an asymptomatic infection rate of 80%. The Pfizer "vaccine" could be lighter fluid for all we know. All that is needed to prove it is effective, is to reduce the number of deaths you count as being attributed Covid-19. So changing the numbers more in line with what skeptics want, would work to prove the effectiveness of the injection also.
I totally agree :thumb: .

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Havre » Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:09 pm

I'm not sure if you can differentiate between the "left" and "right" that easily. It might be true. Jonathan Haidt has some interesting ideas when it comes to personality differences between people with different political views. But let us not forget it was the malleable masses that "supported" the I guess right leaning dictators we saw in Europe and South America in the 20th century. Obviously you had the same with the "communist" version in Russia, China, Cambodia etc.

To me humans in general seem fairly malleable on either side of the political spectrum.

In the news I see a new strain - and surprise surprise it is worse than the ones before. Or it is always modified with "seemingly" so that you cannot be caught lying if it is false. Not sure why such things can't be reported in scientific terms instead? If it is "seemingly" worse than show us the data.

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Matteo V » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:31 pm

Havre wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:09 pm
I'm not sure if you can differentiate between the "left" and "right" that easily. It might be true. Jonathan Haidt has some interesting ideas when it comes to personality differences between people with different political views. But let us not forget it was the malleable masses that "supported" the I guess right leaning dictators we saw in Europe and South America in the 20th century. Obviously you had the same with the "communist" version in Russia, China, Cambodia etc.
If I am correct in assuming you are referring to the bolsheviks and the nationalist socialists, their roots and strategy lie(d) in leftism, not classical liberalism. Freedom for all, equality of opportunity, and rational debate exposing all points of view freely, are what classical liberalism maintains or works towards.

Redefining freedom to mean what those in power say is allowed, equality of outcome (resulting in equality of despair), and silencing dissent, are what leftism is about.

You can tell a leftist by thier actions to silence views opposed to thier own, as well as to have those views erased from history. A classical liberal would want views opposed to thier own exposed to as many people on both sides as possible, discussed, debated, and recorded in history for posterity.



Havre wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:09 pm
To me humans in general seem fairly malleable on either side of the political spectrum.
While the dichotomy in the US does not exactly represent the left vs right in the rest of the world, it is close.

Leftists in the US are particularly susceptible to going along with changes to the narrative, so long as those changing the narrative are pandering to those leftist's feelings. The true reality of the situation is not important to leftists.

The right is unfortunately very ridged in thier views, and are extremely skeptical of changes to the narrative. This means that those pandering to the right, have a very difficult time if the story "goes off the rails", and thus those pandering to the right simply profess to belive the same as those on the right. If true reality is different than what those on the right belive, they will be resistant to believing it.

So the left are malleable, while the right are rigid. In a fluid situation where society is lurching from one crisis to the next, who would you rather have under you if you need to change the narrative? - My pick is leftists because I know I can't change reality, but I can change their view of it by changing the narrative.

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Havre » Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:55 pm

I´m referring to regimes that are identified by either side of the spectrum "right" and "left" (you wouldn't be able to really position liberalism (proper sense of the word - not the American) along a 2d continuum like that). To say that the nazis were "leftists" because they called themselves national socialists is at best rather odd. Even if you leave out the nazis you still got Mussolini, Franco, Pinochet etc. who were supported by "malleable" people from the right. Or I wouldn't separate between the two - malleable people in general.

The same way you become a Christian if you are born in country X, Muslim if you are born in country Y, Buddhist if you are born in country Z and so on. There are external forces outside the individual that will influence to a large degree what you end up "being" as a religious person.

So I do not believe that the Soviet Union became a "leftist" dictatorship because people on the left are so malleable. I think there was a high degree of randomness and path dependency that led them that way. The same way Germany was the "hot bed" for communism before it suddenly went bad person. Whatever way one define the nazis as "national socialists" they still didn't see themselves as communists at least.

The discussion is cool, and maybe somewhat relevant to Covid-19, but not enough so that I think we should continue down that road for much longer in this thread.

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby alunj » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:01 pm

Havre wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:09 pm

In the news I see a new strain - and surprise surprise it is worse than the ones before. Or it is always modified with "seemingly" so that you cannot be caught lying if it is false. Not sure why such things can't be reported in scientific terms instead? If it is "seemingly" worse than show us the data.
Boris and the chuckle brothers were on TV earlier . They said British mutant is slightly more lethal ... maybe
They said some studies show 10 in 10000 risk at 6o years old for original and 13 in 10000 for British variant. But evidence currently very weak and based of tiny samples .
Immediate effect , Netherlands banned all flights and ferries from U.K. ( or as it’s now known plague island )
They also reduced estimate of infective nature from +70% to +30

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Havre » Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:13 pm

alunj wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 10:01 pm
Havre wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 7:09 pm

In the news I see a new strain - and surprise surprise it is worse than the ones before. Or it is always modified with "seemingly" so that you cannot be caught lying if it is false. Not sure why such things can't be reported in scientific terms instead? If it is "seemingly" worse than show us the data.
Boris and the chuckle brothers were on TV earlier . They said British mutant is slightly more lethal ... maybe
They said some studies show 10 in 10000 risk at 6o years old for original and 13 in 10000 for British variant. But evidence currently very weak and based of tiny samples .
Immediate effect , Netherlands banned all flights and ferries from U.K. ( or as it’s now known plague island )
They also reduced estimate of infective nature from +70% to +30
Yeah. They are shutting down things here as well. It is not urgent enough to do it today, but tomorrow we will see stricter restrictions in at least parts of Norway.

Considering how successful they have been in the UK so far I´m sure this "new" urgency will make sure it will be fine with this new virus that might be both deadlier and more transmissible.

Our Minister of Health the other day he would occasionally when waking up during the night check the numbers of new cases on his phone. He is basically admitting to be completely brainwashed and having lost all perspective, but that is now just considered normal here.

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Dave_5280 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 3:39 am

At work heard about 2 - a 63 year old and a tougher one age 34 father of 3 - just sucks.

Good news for some hope - people I know are finally getting their first dose of vaccine. And after the first 2 tiers of vaccine people the third tier will happen in spring March 20th, and also includes anyone of any age that was in a phase 3 vaccine trial and got the vaccine.

I’ve got about a week to go for 60 days with my vaccine and should have good immunity with the T cells.

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Dave_5280 » Sat Jan 23, 2021 4:41 am

Total number of COVID-19 vaccinations administered hit 52.9 million ;

https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby revhed » Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:50 am

Matteo V wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:31 pm

The true reality of the situation is not important to leftists.
Ignorant statement expressed as fact, not opinion.
And also just not true, generalisation without merit.
R H

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Re: Covid vaccine

Postby Matteo V » Sat Jan 23, 2021 5:34 pm

revhed wrote:
Sat Jan 23, 2021 10:50 am
Matteo V wrote:
Fri Jan 22, 2021 9:31 pm

The true reality of the situation is not important to leftists.
Ignorant statement expressed as fact, not opinion.
And also just not true, generalisation without merit.
R H
I think I can restate/expand on this to make it inarguable.


The true reality of the situation is not important to a leftist with the one exception of when the reality, or part thereof, confirms the narrative, or any part thereof.


In this thread alone, an objective observer can confirm this with many examples. Harve's recognition of the left's feelings toward big pharma prior to 2020 vs after 2020 is one. Narrative changes are so frequent on the left, it's hard to keep up, let alone rationally explain it without citing mental illness or commonality of personality disorders.


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