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Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 9:01 am
by Soleas
edt wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 2:01 am
Pulling the trim line I'm sure works perfectly for you but I would be reluctant suggest it for a beginner. I don't mind using the qr that's what it's for and it works great. Nobody wants to throw their qr for some reason. I'll throw it just to land my kite I don't care if anyone sees me. I'm not embarrassed to throw the qr.
If you are quoting my post, I was obviously not referring to beginners since this is a 30kn conditions thread. Also, what does being embarrassed has to do with it? Is it better to save it? Or release everything in panic and let your kite fly into other's kites or people on the beach? I saw that happening in front of me. Guy panicked in a freak gust of 49kn( the conditions where 20-25kn) and released his kite onto a girl's kite who was trying to land her kite. Both kites got tangled and started looping. The girl flew away in warp speed, got dragged about 300m and after slamming the ground a couple of times she hit a pole with her head and LUCKILY someone managed to grab the kites that eventually came low.
After seeing that in my eyes, releasing my kite is the last option.It has nothing to do with embarasment. If I release my kite in 30kn+ i'm saving my self but i'm putting other's at risk. There are minimum 20 kites in the water at my home spot and sometimes 50 kites. And it's tight. If I have an option to save the deathloop without releasing I will use it.

Conclusion. This technique works good in situations where pulling the initial QR won't work. It is helpful as a last option before releasing everything onto someone else in a busy kitesurfing spot.

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 am
by Herman
Pulling the centre lines is a useful tool to effectively sheet a kite out.

However, in a bar wrap as in the video the bar will already be at the depower cleat so grabbing and pulling that will do little or nothing to effect the flight of the kite. If you are going to try to snuff the power with a centre line pull you need to reach up for the top of the trim system or higher. (Pulling the cleat is little more than fully sheeting out the bar.) Bear in mind you will have to overcome the ~full power of kite as it starts to initially fly faster.

Definitely not for the tentative or beginners and not my choice powered in 30knts but if you go for it go for it fully committed..............Obviously useful if you can get the mini 5th position before the sh1t hits the fan or in a lull as long as you can avoid tangles.

PS in the extreme if the kite is pulling more than approx body weight you might just be doing a chin up!

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 5:28 pm
by Soleas
Herman wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 11:43 am
Pulling the centre lines is a useful tool to effectively sheet a kite out.

However, in a bar wrap as in the video the bar will already be at the depower cleat so grabbing and pulling that will do little or nothing to effect the flight of the kite. If you are going to try to snuff the power with a centre line pull you need to reach up for the top of the trim system or higher. (Pulling the cleat is little more than fully sheeting out the bar.) Bear in mind you will have to overcome the ~full power of kite as it starts to initially fly faster.

Definitely not for the tentative or beginners and not my choice powered in 30knts but if you go for it go for it fully committed..............Obviously useful if you can get the mini 5th position before the sh1t hits the fan or in a lull as long as you can avoid tangles.

PS in the extreme if the kite is pulling more than approx body weight you might just be doing a chin up!

Trust me it works. Ive had many different tangles (deathloops) including the one in the video and trust me that one is one of the simple ones. And thanks for correcting the detail of grabbing just above the cleat or straps, thats what i was trying to say. Yes, exactly', it depowers the kite like when you let go of the bar completely but only if you have the kite trimmed correctly for the conditions. Meaning that your kite depowers a lot when you sheet out. Everytime i did it the kite flew to the edge of the window with mimimum power, able to hold it with one hand. It lands on the side with very little power and it stays there giving you time to check whats going on and fix it while holding the cleat close to the chest. I weigh 65kg and it works fine in 30kn on my 9m.

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 6:42 pm
by Herman
^^ I know how and when it works. I think you made a good point but your description needed clarification regarding the method, timing and ease of application. Actually the timing is fairly self regulating imho, the kite will tell you when you missed the opportunity! All good stuff to think about and as I said earlier it is,imho, important to develope good instincts and this sort of discussion helps.

For me the main takeaway from this is don’t forget to consider pulling in some center line before trying to unwrap a bar to keep the kite depowered.

PS. Small kites have a relatively short sheeting range and so it is not critical to have the kite properly trimmed for this to work as long as you pull in enough centre line imho.

Hopefully we are on the same page.......

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:10 pm
by edt
It's pretty hard to tell if the death loop is caused by a bridle wrap, a stuck pulley, a chicken line bar wrap, or a knotted line when it's blowing hard as there's a lot of spray and it's hard to see what's going on when you're teabagging. I don't use this trim line method but does it work for all death loops or just some?

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:38 pm
by Herman
That is sort of what I meant by timing for use of center line pulling being self regulating. If you are being dragged hard or teabagged you may well be in a position where the best you can do is feel for the qr and I do this with both hands.

For me it is something to do before it happens or at least before it gathers pace, but that is also true for qr which is why I think it would be wrong to give the impression that giving the cleat a tug will simply solve your problems.

PS I have made a mental note to myself to hold the trim, at least occasionally, when taking a break on the beach with the kite on a tip, just to reinforce what might be a useful instinct.

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 4:41 pm
by Soleas
Herman wrote:
Thu Jan 07, 2021 7:38 pm

PS I have made a mental note to myself to hold the trim, at least occasionally, when taking a break on the beach with the kite on a tip, just to reinforce what might be a useful instinct.
Now that is what i mean by practising on the beach. I hold the kite from the chickenloop or cleat very often when exchanging kites with students and i know what the kite does instinctivly. Ive done it so many times for so many years it is second nature. I used to kill the kite from looping by pulling the opposite rear line until one day my hand got caught in the twisted bar. My instinct was to completely depower the kite cause my hand was involved in the deathlop and instictivly i pulled the cleat. I remember i reacted pretty instantly, the kite managed to complete one loop. Kite depowered instantly and fell on its tip on the side. Lines got loose and pulled my hand out. I was close to the beach and it was blowing over 30. I shit my pants for a second seeing my hand caught in the twist. I managed to ride it off and no one noticed it happened. That was when i discovered the front lines method. But as i said i was already familial with pulling the front lines from the cleat and my hand automaticly grabbed it and pulled it.

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:02 pm
by Herman
Ditto on flying with bar and trim strap hold or bar and chicken loop hold. Don’t practice as much as I used to as only rarely use unhooking and C kites on land boards where I did that sort of thing a lot, nowadays, on foils and hooked in ...got old.

Back in the day, possibly Cabrinha Black tip era, there was a good video of using the centre line pull to get you out of trouble and emergency landing. Guessing just went out of fashion to talk about it with modern kites and couldn’t find the video but did not look hard.

PS on my storm kites <6m I use a really long bar throw so if I release the bar the kite is automatically more or less in the mini 5th position - allowing for short bridle giving a little extra residual pull. Downside is it needs hand to hand to spin the bar but that is good dexterity practice, pluside it is handy for anchor launch.

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 5:00 pm
by wvickers
It may be quickly coincidental, but I had a death loop experience using the Cabrinha bar 3 winters ago.
The original video here brought back that unpleasant memory.
So perhaps it is helpful I discuss it for my own therapy and perhaps for others.
I didn't have on a GoPro.

Foiling on a cold winter day.
Gibed to toe side on foil because of erratic waves from a recently passed ferry trying to quickly avoid the largest coming wave sets.
Foil and I nosed dived halfway thru gibe. Foil flipped over and somehow mast came between center line and right steering line....probably from the erratic waves that were being thrown up and foil went airborne into the lines coming from behind me.
I tried to undue the problem of foil between the lines but the steering line looped around the end of bar...just like in the original video.

Who knows why it occurred but it is hard to get a foil back thru the lines in good breeze.
I was unable to clear steering line and in trying to do so it pulled kite into a sequence of death loops. Was kinda freaky trying to clear the foil when I saw the line wrap around the end and knew I was in for a crap fest.
Within a few seconds, nose of foil was lodge in front of me and pulling me under water as the kite powered into the start of the death loops.
Foil was pinned between me and the force of the water.
Since foil was pulling on the steering line and the end of line was wrapped around the bar it was a pretty hard set of death loops sequences with little time between the next set of loops.
Had on a low seat harness which appeared to make this all worse
After a few death loops where there was brief moment to break the surface and speak to God for a second, I was being pulled so hard that I couldn't release the primary safety.
Was unable to get to the knife attached under the harness because was being pulled so hard, plus being underwater most of the time.

So just ejected secondary safety once I felt the exhaustion kicking in. Thankfully it's easier to get that eject when being pulled so hard since can reach behind the back where the force of water was less.
Anyhow, it may have been coincidental, but this type of bar end might have contributed. I don't know though but once it started tightening I couldn't unloop it off in that brief moment as the kite started to power up. Yea, I probably should of pulled the other steering line or center line first then working on unlooping the one end...but having the foil in front of me created more confusion. Perhaps I should of pulled the other lines first.
I loved that carbinha bar otherwise, but I don't use bars nowadays that have an end cap like that. One of my Liquid Force is similar.
Custom carbon, Naish, Slinghsot, Airush, and Ozone don't have ends like that and appear to be less of a potential hazard.
It was a rare event. It has never occurred again, even with attempting kite loops and back roll with kite foil and silly things on foil.
A few foil jumping thru the center lines events have occurred on those wiling to try looping big air on foil. Thus must always rehearse what happens when shit hits the fan in the air with a foil...just push the foil back behind you with your feet and release it and pull yourself forward and away of the board if shit hits the fan. I personally think jumping high with a foil is much safer injury wise than a twin tip....impacts are such easier on the knees because the deceleration created by the foil going the surface of water. I am at the age where I don't want hard impact landings on a twin tip or in shallow water.

Things that I now mentally and physically practice again and again and the video reminds me to do it more thank you:

-This video reminds me to rehearse release and finding the knife quickly with eyes closed...as vision is always mostly underwater during such events. Know where all the relapses and the knife are Rehearse it. It's somewhat similar to whitewater kayaking or surfing where the underwater forces are erratic and strong and you have to try and remain calm when such an event occurs.
-Got to know where the knife is...should always have one, although some will debate this. It needs to be easily reachable when being pulled hard. Yea carrying a knife is debatable, but in our area we occasionally have fishing lines near one of the pier heads that got dangled around my feet and foil once . If you use a foil kite and have to do a packdown and swim in, we all know it sometimes happens in rough waves where the lines get tight around your feet when wearing boots in cold water. It can be really tough getting those lines off the boot when it's wavy and half underwater. The velcro tabs and straps on some boots can really create a line mess on the boot.
-The primary release can be tough to get to during a death loop. Mentally rehearse finding this when being pulled hard and scared
-The seat harness folded me partly in half because of the pull from the death loop, whereas a waist harness possibly would of just pulled up on my chest and brought me to the surface perhaps more often during the loops. The seat harness possibly increased the downward force as I was a few feet underwater during the initial death loops. It seemed like I was 6-8 feet underwater for a minute or two. It may have only been 30 seconds but it felt like internity. It did take me a full 2 years to wear a seat harness again and perhaps some cognitive behavior therapy and neurofeedback as it was such an unpleasant memory. Haha
-After being underwater, I thankfully had not had an expiration ventilation right before the event. So I had enough renaming vital capacity on inspiration (breath in) to get me thru the increasingly frightening feeling of drowning Somewhat like how big wave surfers practice....large inhalation before being submerged....but I don't surf stuff that big. I hadn't practiced such an inhalation maneuver and was only lucky I had taken breath before hitting the water hard. I do feel the impact vest helped all this as in foiling at 25 knots and up, it's always good to have on a flotation impact vest.
-The foil board was pulling me under like a fishing lure. There is the video of a kite foil racer on here from last year which showed a similar event with the foil between the lines. Although it's rare, it can happen when on a foil in waves. Faster light high aspect foils do have the ability to pop out of the water a few feet when you eject off of them. Rarely do they fly straight forward but they can off a wave like the erratic steep waves I was in.

Anyhow, all is well when we get thru an event like this when things come out ok
But I think it's important we all share ideas and experiences.

I was approximately 2 km offshore from the launch site.
Lost the brand new Cabrinha 8m kite and used bar. I think the almighty took that thing way from me, but felt bad I couldn't find it onshore as potential trash. It probably snagged on a reef offshore somewhere so a commercial fishermen probably found it since they are the only ones out in the winter.
Somehow the foil flipped back thru the lines after I completely released the kite, as it started foiling being pulled hard downwind, which made no sense how it freed itself when I couldn't, but I was lucky to still have the expensive foil and board to lay on and do the swim in on a cold January winter day.
Apologize for the long post if you read this far.



Bill

Re: Dealing with a real world death loop in 30 knot conditions

Posted: Sat Jan 09, 2021 6:34 pm
by Herman
I enjoyed your account as it presents another scenario to think about and like you I believe this sort of discussion and visualisation helps prepare your mind set for the unexpected particularly as tangles are not an every day event. I haven’t had a tangle for a while, last one was hooking a line fishpoling for a loop but managed to extricate it before things got nasty. Nothing like being faced with a set of cheese cutters plus two swords and two daggers! Oh and a guillotine, nearly forgot the mast!

PS But sorry to hear about the loss of kite etc!