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Beginner question on bar pressure

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artificialname
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Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby artificialname » Wed Feb 10, 2021 9:03 pm

I flew an 11m Cabrinha Crossbow on a frozen lake, and was overpowered
I then flew my friend's CRX 7 metre

The difference between bar pressure on the 2 kites was extreme. This is a beginner question - why was the bar pressure so different on the 11m and the 7m ?
Is it simply that larger kites always have more bar pressure?

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby FLandOBX » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:32 pm

Ok, since no one else has responded, I'll bite.

Crossbows pull like a truck, which is why many people on this forum have great memories of those kites. Bar pressure isn't dependent on kite size. You can have a 17 meter kite with light bar pressure and another brand/model with heavy bar pressure in 8-9 meters.

While I'm certain there are more technically correct explanations, I've always thought that bar pressure depends on how the kite's bridle system "pitches" or orients the kite in the wind when it's in a "neutral" position. Your Crossbow will always have heavy bar pressure, which isn't necessarily a bad thing. You get used to the kite that you ride, and you'll appreciate the strong feedback from the Crossbow when you try a kite with very light bar pressure. But in the end, it's personal preference.

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby Hugh2 » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:34 pm

You are comparing an 11m and a 7m, why are you surprised that the 11m pulled harder?

artificialname
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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby artificialname » Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:57 pm

FLandOBX wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:32 pm

Crossbows pull like a truck, which is why many people on this forum have great memories of those kites.
Can you explain? Great memories of good kite sessions in low wind or "Great" memories of being thrown to the ground in pain?

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby Herman » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:20 am

Simplistically if the tow point is more forward of the center of lift the kite will need more bar pressure, bridle and wing shape design.

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby Matteo V » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:53 am

Herman wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:20 am
Simplistically if the tow point is more forward of the center of lift the kite will need more bar pressure, bridle and wing shape design.
Yes, in every depower kite, most of the load is on the front lines, but some of the load always stays on the back lines.

A designer can build in low or high bar pressure reguardless of kite size. It's more model dependent, though the bar pressure in a different year can be "tweaked" for high or low bar pressure, as often is done

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby FLandOBX » Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:53 am

artificialname wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:57 pm
FLandOBX wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:32 pm

Crossbows pull like a truck, which is why many people on this forum have great memories of those kites.
Can you explain? Great memories of good kite sessions in low wind or "Great" memories of being thrown to the ground in pain?
Great memories of great kite sessions in all types of wind. The Crossbow was a very popular and good kite in its day.

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby artificialname » Thu Feb 11, 2021 3:27 am

FLandOBX wrote:
Thu Feb 11, 2021 2:53 am
artificialname wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:57 pm
FLandOBX wrote:
Wed Feb 10, 2021 11:32 pm

Crossbows pull like a truck, which is why many people on this forum have great memories of those kites.
Can you explain? Great memories of good kite sessions in low wind or "Great" memories of being thrown to the ground in pain?
Great memories of great kite sessions in all types of wind. The Crossbow was a very popular and good kite in its day.
In term of entry level kites, is there an equivalent today - something very popular loved by many? Particularly something I can pick up as a Used 17m!

Is it possible to say which kites outsell other kites?

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby 1234567Simon » Thu Feb 11, 2021 12:53 pm

It is also very individual feeling...

Wave kites usually have little bar pressure.

Especially for a 17m you can find two different oppionions.

Some like higher bar pressure ... better feeling for the low wind situation

Some like lower bar pressure, as it already is so much work to keep the kite going.

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Re: Beginner question on bar pressure

Postby joriws » Fri Feb 12, 2021 11:08 am

I made a quick simplified sketch taking everything very simple and 1D. But maybe with it we can understand bar pressure (design) points. The imagined attachment points are just sort of force transfer avg leverage points compared to lift. And actual IRL leverages are 3d shapes and lift is 3d too etc. I just over explain and hope you are not too picky about the picture.

Front-line attachment point effects by leverage arm to kite lift vector to total bar pressure. Some kites even allows easy tweaking front bridle with "wave" setting and "freeride" setting which affects a bit kite flight characteristics and might affect bar pressure too. All LEI kites allows to set backline attachment points with bar pressure print on kite.

In the end it is a question of kite lift force balanced on leverage arms between front- and back lines. Also when kite is turning the backline force will increase due to front line force change. I try to explain that in turning, the turn's outside wing tip flies faster developing more lift on that side of kite which is transferred to that side front line more. Back line outside turn is more loose. Front line inside turn receives less lift but turnside backline more.

So to answer OP, design of bridle between kites change bar pressure feeling. And bar pressure can be designed into kite but it also alters some flying characteristics.
kite_bar_pressure.gif
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