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Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

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ACD2B
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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs. 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby ACD2B » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:03 pm

Thanks TheRussia, RustyChain, Windigo1, Havre, Greenturtle, 1234567Simon, PullStrings, mikelet!

Lot of very helpful reading and tips.
Big kites are typically quite expensive - so if I were to buy a new/used big kite now finding a good deal would probably be more important than finding the perfect kite - be it 15 or 17. That depends on how much money you are willing to spend though - of course.
I do have an option for 15m or 17m kite to be around EUR 700-900max new/ used 2018-2019 models. Looking at the Contra, even 3-strut Passion 17m and Duotone Juice. Not that familiar with other brands and don't see so many nice offers.

#1 I am not planning to foil with this kite, on use my TT and/ or my Surfboard. Honestly, I hate nothing more than lower wind and struggle with upwind performance, mainly because of not enough power to stay afloat. I don't expect to go riding below 10 knots, but be able to take advantage of range 13-18knots nicely, maybe with some chop near the beach/ tide/ current. A holiday session saver. So looking for a more high aspect ratio, hence the mid-range Emotion or Contra (KitesurferMAG wrote it has great upwind performance, so a bit confused with this).

Reading
I have a 17m and I don't like it as it's too slow
I don't expect to loop the kite, just casual riding with some jumps, play in the waves etc... - freeride in great weather conditions.
Weight don't really matter because LW designed big kites will stay up flying easily in 7-8 knots without much input
I can imagine, but it feels sometimes the heavier kites struggle more with the up-stroke compared to lighter versions, which seems to be crucial in light wind. I usually get a good first pull, but hen sometimes the way up isn't fast enough to generate power and forward motion.
The more struts usually equals the most kite projected area / most upwind pulling power
This is interesting, so a 3 strut LW design in 17m could mean faster turning than a 1-strut 15m? (I do have a nice option for a 17m kite with 3-struts).
A big kite has the advantage to lower the range of wind to any type of board you're willing to ride , my advice is to go for a high AR big kite that allows you for effortless upwind at the cost of pure grun
What would be the high AR kites? I find it difficult to find measurements of kites, so have to rely on reviews, but these tend to be general and not so accurate as some might differ in opinion.

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs. 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby Greenturtle » Mon Feb 22, 2021 6:55 pm

Might have a look here, flite 17s at about the lowest cost you’ll find, for a new kite at least.

https://www.s2as.com/2018-ocean-rodeo-g ... kite-29675

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby NotsoShort » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:33 pm

Took me a while to get a 17m kite. I’m 106kg . I had a 14m RPM which got me going in 14 knots. Loved the kite and with extra hang time helped a lot practicing rotation initially.

I got a 17m zephyr as being in the UK the warmest time of the year is not generally the kite season. The winds are generally a lot lighter in the summer. It’s the only time of the year where you can cope without a wetsuit. Even if I’m not being able to do tricks, but cruise on a summer’s evening without a wetsuit, it’s worth the money for that experience

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby Windigo1 » Mon Feb 22, 2021 7:54 pm

The high aspect ratio is a kite that the length versus width is a higher number you don't have to measure you just look at the kite and you know. A race kite like the Ozone Edge has a pretty high aspect ratio for an inflatable kite the reason that's good is because the portion of the kite generating the power is in the middle so having a long and flat kite it can generate a lot of power for it's size and go upwind very well. The turning area of the kite in the wingtip is smaller so these kites will have a lot of power and depower Because they are flat but they will not turn quickly. They usually have many struts because those are needed to support the flat canopy from deforming. C kites is the other extreme they have huge wingtips but a small power area therefore they are usually fast turning but have less power nice for the pros doing mega loops and tricks because they won't rip your arms of and they jump well because of the speed but you have to keep them moving to generate power.

Most freeride kites are a compromise in the middle like the Flite it's fairly high aspect but not like a race kite it moves pretty fast for it's size and it's very light because of 3 smalls struts and a good design. Single struts and strutless are designed mostly for foiling where upwind is not a problem. They need to have a rounded delta shape and a large leading edge because without the struts for maintaining the structure you need that shape and also for the kite to relaunch properly. More struts doesn't make the kite turn faster it's more the shape, smaller leading edge and bridle design that's important.

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby mikelet » Mon Feb 22, 2021 10:53 pm

The high aspect ratio is a kite that the length versus width is a higher number you don't have to measure you just look at the kite and you know. A race kite like the Ozone Edge has a pretty high aspect ratio for an inflatable kite the reason that's good is because the portion of the kite generating the power is in the middle so having a long and flat kite it can generate a lot of power for it's size and go upwind very well. The turning area of the kite in the wingtip is smaller so these kites will have a lot of power and depower Because they are flat but they will not turn quickly. They usually have many struts because those are needed to support the flat canopy from deforming. C kites is the other extreme they have huge wingtips but a small power area therefore they are usually fast turning but have less power nice for the pros doing mega loops and tricks because they won't rip your arms of and they jump well because of the speed but you have to keep them moving to generate power.

Most freeride kites are a compromise in the middle like the Flite it's fairly high aspect but not like a race kite it moves pretty fast for it's size and it's very light because of 3 smalls struts and a good design. Single struts and strutless are designed mostly for foiling where upwind is not a problem. They need to have a rounded delta shape and a large leading edge because without the struts for maintaining the structure you need that shape and also for the kite to relaunch properly. More struts doesn't make the kite turn faster it's more the shape, smaller leading edge and bridle design that's important

So true!. I would add regarding big kites that if you have not very clear kite AR's pros and cons , and if it's possible for you to test some kites ,that you make a mental try to differentiate what you're feeling at your arms/harness and what you're feeling at your legs ...i mean if all the power you get from the bar/kite it translates in upwind gain and boardspeed ( board style efficiency plays a role here ) or by the contrary the heavy power delivered feels as wasted because you need too much board pressure/ drag to stay upwind....some big kites for LW are worth ,others don't or exclusively for heavy people...

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby Topaz » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:00 am

I wonder why in the twin tip video the motion stops right after almost every trick. Maybe the kite just fell and the filming crew had to go pick it up? LOL

I don't believe that 10knots twin tip BS any more. Some years ago, Naish convince me that the 15m Naish Fly would allow you to do freestyle in 10 knots.
The 15m Fly, was supposed to turn like a 12 and pull like a 17.
It didn't say 15 anywhere in the kite or the bag. And it suspiciously said 17m in the little tags on the bridle. And I also heard that Robby himself admitted it was a 17, not a 15.
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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby matth » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:21 am

I find big kites have a very small window of satisfaction. For me at 185lbs with pretty decent kite flying abilities it's from around 12mph to 17mph. Below 12m it's just mowing the lawn at best, above 17m I would rather be whipping my 12m around. I disagree a little with others, IMO 15m is a big jump from a 12m. I think 17m is for heavyweights only 225lbs plus.

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby PabloQ » Tue Feb 23, 2021 2:51 am

I'd buy a 12m soul and be eternally happy

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby SolarSet » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:21 am

For 93kg I would and I did buy Soul 15m way better than 15/17m LEI

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Re: Buying larger kite 15m vs 17m (Contra, Emotion, Juice etc.)

Postby Madraoulas » Tue Feb 23, 2021 9:22 am

Hallo..I kite almost a year now.I have RRD Addiction 8m, Passion 10.5m, Passion 13,5m, Emotion mk4 17m. Yesterday 22/2/2021 was the first time I used the 17m with RRD Placebo V7 142x45, 88kg naked...Wind 9-12kn (I have a little anemometer all time with me).It was the first time I kited with so low wind.Th kite is an absolutely smooth beast.Lovely!!..Flies very steady (I was at off-shore/side off-shore wind, so much gusts).I felt very confident, absorbs gusts very well, not feel overpowered.With Passion 13.5 I had too many backstalls , with Emotion 17m no backstall.I am very happy.I am 53years old, I just cruising but I felt I had power for some tricks.If you decide don't buy Passion 17m(3 strut), the Emotion 17m(one strut) is much lighter and flies veeeery easy.If you also buy a big lightwind TTyou'll be very happy at low wind days as you can't imagine with 17m....wish you good sessions
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