Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Big Air advantage to being heavy?

Forum for kitesurfers
nothing2seehere
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 967
Joined: Fri Jun 27, 2014 3:25 pm
Kiting since: 2020
Weight: 75
Local Beach: Calshot, Hayling, Meon - Southcoast UK
Gear: Duotone Rebel, Ocean rodeo jester, Airush Ultra, shinn boards
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 52 times
Been thanked: 109 times

Re: Big Air advantage to being heavy?

Postby nothing2seehere » Tue Mar 02, 2021 9:46 am

Windigo1 wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:37 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:42 pm
So I have a simple understanding why small kites are more difficult to land softly and its to do with the speed that they fly. In order to soften a landing you need to keep the kite flying in the air above your head - note flying and not stationary. Hence a heli-loop slows the rate of descent as long as its above you (less so if its too far behind). With a small kite it moves so quickly through the air that the amount of time its above you is low so you don't get the same upwards deceleration

My guess as to why small riders are at a disadvantage is simply down to kite design and conditions. In simple terms it takes a certain force to push a kite to the edge of the wind window. Whilst a light person can squat much more than their own bodyweight, doing so in anything other than flat water is difficult. A heavier rider can apply more force through the harness more easily and get the kite to the edge of the window. Therefore they are less likely to be pulled off an edge when sending the kite.

There's a lot of psuedo reckoning going on in my explanations here so I'd be interested if anyone knew if I was right or wrong?
When you have reached your maximum height and you start going back down there are 3 forces acting on your kite and opposing the gravitational force that is pulling you down. The air resistance is the force of dragging the kite through the air same as a parachute so a bigger kite brings you down more softly because there is more surface acting as a parachute. There is the force of the wind creating some lift in the kite this force is again bigger if you are overpowered on a big kite. The third force is the momentum the same force that makes you go up will soften your landing when you redirect the kite downward aggressively it's like a reverse jump. With the big kite you can let the first 2 forces do the work and glide down smoothly but with a small kite you have to keep it moving if you don't want to fall like a rock!
Surely though, a light person really powered on a 7m would have the same effective canopy as a medium weight person really powered on a 9m?

I'm going to use the Rebel as an example - the 9m has an projected area of 5.6m2 and the 7m has 4.6m2. An 85kg rider on a 9m will have the same projected canopy per kg as a 70kg rider on the 7m. Hence I kind of ignored this aspect of it because it seemed like sizing down SHOULD (?) be possible to stay at the same power level. What do you think?

Kerplow
Medium Poster
Posts: 101
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2020 9:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Weight: 67 Kg
Local Beach: EU
Style: Allrounder
Gear: Looking for a new quiver
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Big Air advantage to being heavy?

Postby Kerplow » Tue Mar 02, 2021 12:52 pm

Lolomolo wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 5:54 am
Kerplow wrote:
Fri Feb 26, 2021 1:21 pm
There is another angle to look at this. There is a reason why people do not megaloop kites below 7m - it simply do not catch them. Sure lightweights would probably be ok, but its risky.
I Loop a 7 and 8M rpm, they catch just fine. Key to looping small kites is getting enough height. They require a heliloop to "complete" the catch and its hard to sneak one in unless youre at least 9-10M up.
Exactly, 7 or 8m. Try that on 6 or 5 :)

User avatar
downunder
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2420
Joined: Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:16 am
Gear: building my own
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Perth, Australia
Has thanked: 86 times
Been thanked: 89 times

Re: Big Air advantage to being heavy?

Postby downunder » Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:58 pm

Windigo1 wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:37 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:42 pm
So I have a simple understanding why small kites are more difficult to land softly and its to do with the speed that they fly. In order to soften a landing you need to keep the kite flying in the air above your head - note flying and not stationary. Hence a heli-loop slows the rate of descent as long as its above you (less so if its too far behind). With a small kite it moves so quickly through the air that the amount of time its above you is low so you don't get the same upwards deceleration

My guess as to why small riders are at a disadvantage is simply down to kite design and conditions. In simple terms it takes a certain force to push a kite to the edge of the wind window. Whilst a light person can squat much more than their own bodyweight, doing so in anything other than flat water is difficult. A heavier rider can apply more force through the harness more easily and get the kite to the edge of the window. Therefore they are less likely to be pulled off an edge when sending the kite.

There's a lot of psuedo reckoning going on in my explanations here so I'd be interested if anyone knew if I was right or wrong?
When you have reached your maximum height and you start going back down there are 3 forces acting on your kite and opposing the gravitational force that is pulling you down. The air resistance is the force of dragging the kite through the air same as a parachute so a bigger kite brings you down more softly because there is more surface acting as a parachute. There is the force of the wind creating some lift in the kite this force is again bigger if you are overpowered on a big kite. The third force is the momentum the same force that makes you go up will soften your landing when you redirect the kite downward aggressively it's like a reverse jump. With the big kite you can let the first 2 forces do the work and glide down smoothly but with a small kite you have to keep it moving if you don't want to fall like a rock!
Except bigger is sometimes not bigger ;)

Like an C kite. It is quite evident that the highest jumps are actually on C kites. The Ozone Edge is on par tho. But than, Edge is way lighter kite than any C kite.

Anyhow, no light rider will ever win over more heavier one. Only in marginal wind one might.

Windigo1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 381
Joined: Tue Jan 17, 2017 5:57 pm
Style: Foil foil.. and Old School!
Gear: Too many to list
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: Big Air advantage to being heavy?

Postby Windigo1 » Tue Mar 02, 2021 3:10 pm

downunder wrote:
Tue Mar 02, 2021 1:58 pm
Windigo1 wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 6:37 pm
nothing2seehere wrote:
Mon Mar 01, 2021 4:42 pm
So I have a simple understanding why small kites are more difficult to land softly and its to do with the speed that they fly. In order to soften a landing you need to keep the kite flying in the air above your head - note flying and not stationary. Hence a heli-loop slows the rate of descent as long as its above you (less so if its too far behind). With a small kite it moves so quickly through the air that the amount of time its above you is low so you don't get the same upwards deceleration

My guess as to why small riders are at a disadvantage is simply down to kite design and conditions. In simple terms it takes a certain force to push a kite to the edge of the wind window. Whilst a light person can squat much more than their own bodyweight, doing so in anything other than flat water is difficult. A heavier rider can apply more force through the harness more easily and get the kite to the edge of the window. Therefore they are less likely to be pulled off an edge when sending the kite.

There's a lot of psuedo reckoning going on in my explanations here so I'd be interested if anyone knew if I was right or wrong?
When you have reached your maximum height and you start going back down there are 3 forces acting on your kite and opposing the gravitational force that is pulling you down. The air resistance is the force of dragging the kite through the air same as a parachute so a bigger kite brings you down more softly because there is more surface acting as a parachute. There is the force of the wind creating some lift in the kite this force is again bigger if you are overpowered on a big kite. The third force is the momentum the same force that makes you go up will soften your landing when you redirect the kite downward aggressively it's like a reverse jump. With the big kite you can let the first 2 forces do the work and glide down smoothly but with a small kite you have to keep it moving if you don't want to fall like a rock!
Except bigger is sometimes not bigger ;)

Like an C kite. It is quite evident that the highest jumps are actually on C kites. The Ozone Edge is on par tho. But than, Edge is way lighter kite than any C kite.

Anyhow, no light rider will ever win over more heavier one. Only in marginal wind one might.
Yes there is all kinds of differences in kite shape that can influence things or a big difference in weight and and a small difference in kite might not be translate into more hang time. The general principle doesn't change the forces acting on a much larger kite to slow down it's decent will always be there and a smaller kite will require more active flying.


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Majestic-12 [Bot] and 94 guests