Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Forum for kitesurfers
User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6029
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish duotone cwb burton ronix ozone cabrinha north flysurfer
Has thanked: 153 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby edt » Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:40 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 7:12 pm
edt wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 1:05 pm
I'm pretty sure the people riding these minimal bars have never been to the rodeo which is a death loop in high winds otherwise they would go back to the big safer floaties.
The question is who is audience for these bars.
AFAIK they are used by foilers who are either out in low wind conditions, with small kites, short lines and/or with foil kites that cannot really deathloop.
They usually also ride with a surf setup without a hook.

So it’s unlikely the intended audience will be deathlooping a big kite in high winds.

About half the guys who use those minimal bars are like you said, in light wind, for them of course it's fine. Nobody is gonna get hurt if a kite death loops in 8 knots, but there are about half the sales to newbies that like the idea of "minimal" and "cool" and buy them without knowing that if you don't have those big floaties you are gonna have a deathloop. Sooner or later.

I also really dislike Anton's video. It makes it seem like the natural thing to do when you get into a death loop is to start pulling lines. No! Hit your QR, please.

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6725
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 147 times
Been thanked: 137 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Mar 28, 2021 3:54 am

edt wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:40 pm
It makes it seem like the natural thing to do when you get into a death loop is to start pulling lines. No! Hit your QR, please.
Not always the best idea. I recently watched a video of a guy with a foil through his lines and a looping kite, and his first response was to pull the QR. So now he has the same problem but worse because it's all out of reach and even more tightly wrapped together.

Take time to assess the situation before reacting.

User avatar
Abaltasis
Rare Poster
Posts: 21
Joined: Sat Sep 19, 2020 10:06 pm
Kiting since: 2010
Weight: 120kg
Local Beach: Greece - Athens
Greece - Nafpaktos
Favorite Beaches: Cape town - Big bay
Jericoacoara - Tatajuba
Greece - Dioni
Style: Old school, Big Air
Gear: Duotone Dice 12m
Duotone Dice 10m
Duotone Evo 9m
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: Greece
Has thanked: 7 times
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby Abaltasis » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:32 am

edt wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 9:40 pm
I also really dislike Anton's video. It makes it seem like the natural thing to do when you get into a death loop is to start pulling lines. No! Hit your QR, please.
If you hit your QR in a deathloop nothing is gonna happen. So if you do it you should also hit immediatelly the second release and completely release your kite from your harness.
Otherwise its gonna still keep dragging you.

So i would suggest if someone is beginner hit both QRs to release it...
If someone is advanced its probably better to pull a line or try to untagnle it in the first 2-4 kiteloops...

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3665
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Master Baiter. Oracle of windsport.
Gear: 2 sets of Flysurfer VMGs 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 15, 18. Foilboards ( Masts 75 90 110 125 Wings 880 950 1100 1350 1750) all with Ronix Ones attached. Soon to retire to Wingfoiling.
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 172 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby longwhitecloud » Sun Mar 28, 2021 7:46 am

In high winds you should have your hand on the qr when you are launching always. Your leash should not be attached to harnesses designed by absolute kooks.. ie harness with a back attachment, side only. This is because you will not be able to reach the leash at when it is deathlooping you at Mach 10.

I can launch unhooked in pretty high winds with right sized kites, just remember to let go.

I pointed out to cabrinha the downfalls of removing long thick leader lines to reduce half hitch deathloop risk. It got corrected.

When you are tangled with someone else you want to think twice about quick releasing if you are in a situation where kites are not looping.. you can normally still stear kites even if lines crossed, looped around. Realeasing could end up messing the other person up.. key is communicating with person you are tangled with.

User avatar
edt
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6029
Joined: Fri Jul 16, 2010 6:27 am
Kiting since: 2010
Local Beach: Michigan
Gear: slingshot liquid force wainman pansh naish duotone cwb burton ronix ozone cabrinha north flysurfer
Has thanked: 153 times
Been thanked: 195 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby edt » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:19 pm

Experienced kiters always want to fix it. Beginners just have a death grip on the bar. That's why nobody ever uses the qr.

windrider1
Frequent Poster
Posts: 497
Joined: Sat Sep 02, 2006 1:51 am
Gear: FLYSURFER, HQ KITES, OZONE KITES
Brand Affiliation: None
Location: NY
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby windrider1 » Sun Mar 28, 2021 1:51 pm

Id have to agree with this . thts the number one cause of injury. people just wont activate their release in a timely manner. Some due to inexperience some due to overexperience thnking that theyre too good to have to release the kite . If the kite is at rest and starts to launch or loop into the power zone its probally a good idea to release the kite and worry about it later. the reason is once u get thrown off your feet or dragged its very hard to get your bearings after that to do something about it. Just practice to release your kite every few sessions people.


edt wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 6:47 pm
kit3surfer wrote:
Sat Mar 27, 2021 5:19 pm
By the way, what about quick release systems for harnesses? So the main problem and danger about these deathloops are the fact that one line is tangled in the hook and even quick releasing the bar won't help, right? So the only way to rescue this situation could be either being pretty skilled with your hook-knife or completely releasing from your harness. Are there harnesses out there which provide kind of this system or am I misunderstanding anything?
I have seen a lot of accidents both in person and on video.

Yes, deathloops are a risk, but the primary risk is NOT the line tangle it's not the design of the bar it's not the design of the harness.

The primary risk factor is that most kiters feel "safer" if they have never activated their release in the last 10 years. They brag about it. "I've never used my quick release and I've kited for 20 years." Then when the shit hits the fan, it takes, roughly 8 seconds for them to even think about releasing.

Go watch some videos of death loops. Start counting when the kite first loops. If you use your quick release in the first second almost always the video won't even go viral, it will just be "used qr swam in" kind of nothing burger. All these accidents happen because pretty much every new kiter will hang on for dear life. You can see them looping and looping. Go watch that guy loop around the light pole. Hanging on for dear life. They won't stop until they hit something. To use the QR never enters their mind. Experienced kiters by contrast are usually trying to save the situation, they are applying inputs to the bar, maybe they are trying to pull one line to get the kite to quit looping, they are looking in the water to see which way it's looped. A lot of the time, the reason you get loops on the spreader, or the QR refuses to work is because everything has gotten tangled in the previous 4 or 5 tea bags.

A the end of the day, almost all these accidents happen, yes the cause is a death loop, but the reason they get injured is they don't even try to use the QR until it's looped at least 4 or 5 times and 8 to 10 seconds have passed. If you use the QR right away almost always you are going to be fine.

Of course there are exceptions, but focus on the primary cause of risk. Once a week, use your QR. Even if you don't have to. Then when the shit hits the fan your hand will hit the QR and you'll be like "Not sure what happened my hand was on the QR before I even knew what was going on. Was that a death loop?"

The new control bar designs are excellent, and of course, new harness designs with their own QR system are also excellent but make sure to practice the QR too. Does zero good to have all these quick releases and not stop until you hit something hard.

jms
Rare Poster
Posts: 22
Joined: Tue Sep 02, 2014 8:30 am
Local Beach: Botany Bay, Sydney
Gear: Ozone, CrazyFly, Switch
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 7 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby jms » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:05 am

I prefer the PU coated depower lines for exactly that reason - I had some tangles with the naked centrelines, and the PU helps prevent that. I was thinking about maybe going back to the naked setup (easier to mod to give myself a long throw), but this does make me think!

I self launch by holding onto the chicken loop - works OK even in crazy winds. That was prompted by the time I looped the kite on launch, and remember trying and struggling to fire the quick release while travelling through the air. I only managed to release after hitting the sand.

longwhitecloud
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3665
Joined: Fri Sep 11, 2009 3:15 am
Style: Master Baiter. Oracle of windsport.
Gear: 2 sets of Flysurfer VMGs 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14 15, 18. Foilboards ( Masts 75 90 110 125 Wings 880 950 1100 1350 1750) all with Ronix Ones attached. Soon to retire to Wingfoiling.
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 172 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby longwhitecloud » Mon Mar 29, 2021 7:30 am

i tested this for years - in middle of teaching kiting - i just go "activate the quick release you are about to get dragged head first into a rock wall!"

For some - no problem - others I just get a blank stare. I already showed them how to use the QR. Many explain they were scared to release the kite. Needs to be trained into most people.

People are so scared of being unhooked too - by accident or deliberately... it the opposite of what it should be - unhooked you can just let go whatever the mayhem/ 45knots gust / deathloop in the making

TimG
Rare Poster
Posts: 13
Joined: Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:20 am
Kiting since: 2018
Weight: 170
Local Beach: Houston
Style: Big Air
Gear: Rebel, monarch
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 1 time
Been thanked: 3 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby TimG » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:13 pm

Just to clarify for everyone. I was not saying that death loops are impossible with the new bars. Nor did I say you should not pull your quick release. All I said is that the new bars are unable to get you in a death loop situation where the quick release cannot get pulled. When the floaty wraps around your harness hook, you do not have the ability to pull your quick release. In this situation, the bar restricts the quick release from being pushed forward. This is very scary and the only way to save it is to pull the other steering line and stall the kite. But with the new bar designs, this situation specifically cannot occur. Now death loops can still happen in other ways, (such as centerline rope wrapping around the bar which the PU tubing prevents), but at least with these you can always push the quick release, and when the kite stays powered, eject. But when the float wraps around your harness hook, the only way to get out of it is to stall the kite since the chicken loop cannot be pushed.
These users thanked the author TimG for the post:
edt (Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:28 pm)
Rating: 6.67%

knotwindy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1909
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:49 am
Local Beach: baja, gorge
Style: erratic to none
Gear: yes, I use gear
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 164 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Re: Death Loop - Risk Highly Reduced W/ New Bar Designs

Postby knotwindy » Mon Mar 29, 2021 5:59 pm

Lose the hook, save yourself!!!


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 62 guests