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Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby downunder » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:10 pm

bragnouff wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:27 am
mr_daruman wrote:
Wed Apr 28, 2021 11:55 pm
Sewn pieces of easily rip able/punctured <ripstop> fabric with an oversized fragile condom and held by four strings and all of it not lasting two years of weekly riding is in my book OVERLY expensive.
Whatever the maker kites shouldn't be more than 1000$ for ALL sizes. Bars at over 500$ is even more outrageous.
Well, it starts with a large number of hours of labour to put a kite together... So, maybe we could bring back slavery or force children to sew kites instead of making Nike shoes, but having some qualified staff and reasonable work conditions typically leads to a better quality product. So despite being produced in SE Asia where labour costs are relatively cheap, there is still a substantial cost in terms of manufacturing. The factory will sell the product with a margin, because they have to earn a living, otherwise they'd just close and do something else to survive.
Then, there are shipping costs, distribution costs, marketing costs (including sponsoring top riders), R&D costs, and many men in the middle who all need to make a profit along the way. So it's no surprise that the price you pay is not the price of the materials or the price out of the factory door.

And to follow on your simplistic description of what a kite is, I'd suggest you assemble yourself a kite with a tough tear proof denim cloth, use a strong puncture proof rubber inner tube, and use 100m of chicken string instead of SK99 dyneema, and report on the experience riding it. All along the way, designers balance performance and robustness (and costs). So you can throw a tantrum and claim that you think this is overly expensive, but that is the reality of the game (a.k.a The Free Market). No one is forcing you to play that game. You can abstain, you can DIY, you don't have to buy the latest gear at retail price, and you can also make it last for way longer than 2 years.


As far as bars are concerned, I also feel like some prices are crazy. The main drive in the boom of bar prices is due to the over engineering, reinventing the wheel, solving problems you didn't know existed, small series of injection molded parts, redesigning proprietary cleats instead of using proven off the shelf parts. Expensive parts, and more labour to put all of that together. But once again, you can step out of that game. I source some quality critical parts like lines and I assemble my bars, in a simple, maintainable way, with commonly available parts from the boat shops. Lasts for longer as I just replace worn out parts whenever needed.
Ummm,

If making the LEI kite is THAT expensive, than making a foil kite would be 3 times more expensive at least. FS is making foils in the EU, so labour cost is 10x, plus 5x time to make it.

But the FS foil kite is not 10x more than LEI made in China or Sri Lanka.

Which sounds to me LEIs are overpriced due to something. What is that? A paint maybe? ;)

Graphics? Than Ozone is way overpriced due to no graphics at all :)

Something somewhere does not match. Cordura used for LE and struts is not that pricey. foils have double canopy, heaps internal support, no PU valves but they are cheap anyway. To make bladders and fit it in is not huge expense.

Again, labour for foil is 3-5 times of LEI. Same extra hidden costs. Are they making loss on foils? I dont think so.

What takes of profit is the management expense, board members, etc. Cut that and bang. Epic does that. Kev does it. So they should be in the position to sell for less, not more.

I dont think Epic has a huge building with a number of employees. But than Epic does not sell that many kites either. Both will be in AU like a hens teeth...

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby knotwindy » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:37 pm

Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 am
I got nothing against Kevin, but I wouldn't pay a cent more for a kite "made" by him compared to someone else. Why would I?
Because as one of the arguably best riders in the world, he has a much better idea than you about what a kite could/should do as has a better chance of making one that is better than you ride? So, if you are an intermediate and won’t push a kite very far, it has little benefit to you other than image. But if you want to push your limits it might be of some benefit to know the kite you are riding will do whatever your next step is easily and the equipment will not be what holds you back? When learning new tricks it can help a lot to trust your gear completely. Does this make it better than other top of the line gear out there? Don’t know, haven’t ridden them all but if it is as good then the price can reflect that?
Again, if it is not worth it to you, you don’t have to buy it. If you want something better than average, whoever makes it, it will cost more.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby PabloQ » Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:52 pm

But the real question I think would be ... Is a kite worth what it should?
A piece of cloth, lines, sweep all of medium technology. With a durability of intensive use of 3 years.
Very fragile
For example, for the same money you can get a 150cc motorcycle made with metal, plastic, fixed moving parts, watchmaking. with a longer half-life.
Thinking ... is the intrinsic price correct?

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby Havre » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:00 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:37 pm
Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 am
I got nothing against Kevin, but I wouldn't pay a cent more for a kite "made" by him compared to someone else. Why would I?
Because as one of the arguably best riders in the world, he has a much better idea than you about what a kite could/should do as has a better chance of making one that is better than you ride? So, if you are an intermediate and won’t push a kite very far, it has little benefit to you other than image. But if you want to push your limits it might be of some benefit to know the kite you are riding will do whatever your next step is easily and the equipment will not be what holds you back? When learning new tricks it can help a lot to trust your gear completely. Does this make it better than other top of the line gear out there? Don’t know, haven’t ridden them all but if it is as good then the price can reflect that?
Again, if it is not worth it to you, you don’t have to buy it. If you want something better than average, whoever makes it, it will cost more.
Being the best rider doesn't mean you will be the best at giving the best feedback to the designers. And it is not like Kevin is 10x better than all the other team riders around.

And as you mention. If Kevin makes the perfect kite for him. In theory it might not even work for a very good kiter. Even professional race drivers can't just handle a F1 car.

If Reedin had proven themselves over some years just making a far superior product. Then sure. But that would be down to the actual product and not me speculating in how they might be able to make those kites. I'm interested in the output to things- do not really care that much about the input.

Not criticising Reedin here. I'm just a bit surprised that what you describe holds any value.
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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby downunder » Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:01 pm

There is no proof and a lot is based on assumptions and a word of mouth.

There is no way to measure any of it. Dimitry was great rider before he started Epic. Is he now even better rider with his own kites? I dont think so. Simply it is impossible to prove it.

So, this is all very subjective and none is exact science. Like an placebo. No value but u get better anyway ;)

Many are taking placebo tho. And paying big bucks for it.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby knotwindy » Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:16 pm

Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:00 pm
knotwindy wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:37 pm
Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 10:05 am
I got nothing against Kevin, but I wouldn't pay a cent more for a kite "made" by him compared to someone else. Why would I?
Because as one of the arguably best riders in the world, he has a much better idea than you about what a kite could/should do as has a better chance of making one that is better than you ride? So, if you are an intermediate and won’t push a kite very far, it has little benefit to you other than image. But if you want to push your limits it might be of some benefit to know the kite you are riding will do whatever your next step is easily and the equipment will not be what holds you back? When learning new tricks it can help a lot to trust your gear completely. Does this make it better than other top of the line gear out there? Don’t know, haven’t ridden them all but if it is as good then the price can reflect that?
Again, if it is not worth it to you, you don’t have to buy it. If you want something better than average, whoever makes it, it will cost more.
Being the best rider doesn't mean you will be the best at giving the best feedback to the designers. And it is not like Kevin is 10x better than all the other team riders around.

And as you mention. If Kevin makes the perfect kite for him. In theory it might not even work for a very good kiter. Even professional race drivers can't just handle a F1 car.

If Reedin had proven themselves over some years just making a far superior product. Then sure. But that would be down to the actual product and not me speculating in how they might be able to make those kites. I'm interested in the output to things- do not really care that much about the input.

Not criticising Reedin here. I'm just a bit surprised that what you describe holds any value.
You’re surprised that a great rider and a great designer would make a great kite? And that it might cost more than average?

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby Matteo V » Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:17 pm

So, what are we up to for cost of production and shipping to the west, for a kite out of China or Sri Lanka? Has it crossed the $300 line yet????

Companies - charge what you want.

Kiters - pay the middle men, the companies, and the shops what you like.

In my experience, every kite company has made junk, and will continue to do so. Every kite company has made some good kites I wish they still produced. I've got no real say in it, though. So I'll pay what I want to, and what I can, to kite. Thank goodness for competition.

And above all, I really wish Pansh would get thier act together enough to be my kite brand, but not enough to start charging what the other brands do.
Last edited by Matteo V on Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby kitesurfpro » Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:19 pm

1. Reedin is in the middle range and not most expensive. So do not understand the topic that well.

Just looked at the facts for 2021 models. Below all 9 meters at our local dealers:

North Reach: 1.479
Naish Pivot: 1.479
F-One Bandit: 1.469
Duotone Evo: 1.439
Slingshot RPX v1: 1.400
Reedin Supermodel v2: 1.349
Airush Ultra v4: 1.199


Have tested the Reedin v1 and the kite flies quite unique. Consequently I can understand that there is demand for this kite. Watch and read my very brief review https://kitesurfpro.nl/en/reedin-superm ... -test-day/

2. Kites will become more and more expensive soon due to shipping issues, wages and raw materials. This is how we can anticipate a bit: https://kitesurfpro.nl/en/kitesurfing-2 ... -material/

3. I very like the race for the 9 meter under 900 Euro. Brands like Ventum, Orao, Fluid Kiteboardin and many more are into this. Also I strongly believe that a lot of kitesurfers will have a much fun with these kites as well. I am keen to test these kites to have an opinion about this compared to the Pivot I like very much after riding the Torch for years and years.
Last edited by kitesurfpro on Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby Matteo V » Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:26 pm

kitesurfpro wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:19 pm

Reedin Supermodel v2: 1.349
F-One Bandit: 1.469
Duotone Eve: 1.439
Airush Ultra v4: 1.199
North Reach: 1.479
Slingshot RPX v1: 1.400
Naish Pivot: 1.479

........

3. I very like the race for the 9 meter under 900 Euro. Label like Ventum, Orao, Fluid Kiteboardin and many more are into this.
Yeah, cool thing about Slingshot is that it's a "pay whatever" brand.

Wanna look rich? Buy an RPX and show it off to everyone right now and through when they go on closeout next fall. And hey, you're rich, so you dont really care about depreciation anyway.

Strapped for cash? Buy a 2019 brand new RPM on closeout. And then you hold value of the kite and loose way less than any other brands value.

Either way you have a great new kite. You just cant do that with any other brand.

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Re: Why is Reedin Kites so damn expensive

Postby Havre » Thu Apr 29, 2021 6:59 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 4:16 pm
Havre wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 3:00 pm
knotwindy wrote:
Thu Apr 29, 2021 2:37 pm


Because as one of the arguably best riders in the world, he has a much better idea than you about what a kite could/should do as has a better chance of making one that is better than you ride? So, if you are an intermediate and won’t push a kite very far, it has little benefit to you other than image. But if you want to push your limits it might be of some benefit to know the kite you are riding will do whatever your next step is easily and the equipment will not be what holds you back? When learning new tricks it can help a lot to trust your gear completely. Does this make it better than other top of the line gear out there? Don’t know, haven’t ridden them all but if it is as good then the price can reflect that?
Again, if it is not worth it to you, you don’t have to buy it. If you want something better than average, whoever makes it, it will cost more.
Being the best rider doesn't mean you will be the best at giving the best feedback to the designers. And it is not like Kevin is 10x better than all the other team riders around.

And as you mention. If Kevin makes the perfect kite for him. In theory it might not even work for a very good kiter. Even professional race drivers can't just handle a F1 car.

If Reedin had proven themselves over some years just making a far superior product. Then sure. But that would be down to the actual product and not me speculating in how they might be able to make those kites. I'm interested in the output to things- do not really care that much about the input.

Not criticising Reedin here. I'm just a bit surprised that what you describe holds any value.
You’re surprised that a great rider and a great designer would make a great kite? And that it might cost more than average?
Never said anything about that.

I don't think it is necessarily enough. Not like the designers at Duotone, North, Ozone etc. are smucks either. Neither are the team riders.

I have no view on the quality of Reedin. I have never even seen one. For all I know the super model is an amazing kite. My point is I would know that just because Kevin is involved.


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