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How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby downunder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 4:38 am

Obviusely many parts are doom and gloom for many, many people.

This is how is perceived. Lets do the poll, Im betting $100 on it.
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby KimAndersen » Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 am

Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:58 am
bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
When I said obtuse views, it's in reference to your incapacity of accepting some of the facts presented herein so far. Like dismissing the sensory effects of head gear, or the specificities of water based activities vs hard surface activities, or insisting again and again that not wearing is only about fashion. Also showing some close-mindedness about how differently kitesurfing happens in other parts of the world. Because of that I very much questioned your own version of logic and reasoning, and they do not convince me, and I personally disregard them on the basis of unsound reasoning and twisted logic. Nothing about how your posts make me "feel".

As you say, my choice. And also my choice to try for the first time some of the fantastic software features of that forum, to hide your posts. To be perfectly honest, I also discovered some hidden features that automagically replace a.s.s.h.o.l.e by something more palatable.
Bit worked up, are we? That's ok.



bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
When I said obtuse views, it's in reference to your incapacity of accepting some of the facts presented herein so far. Like dismissing the sensory effects of head gear,
No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it.



bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
or the specificities of water based activities vs hard surface activities,
Funny, I thought that these deaths were the result of hitting something other than water? Wait.... I think kiters typically launch and land on land near "non water based objects". So it seems that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the most danger, as in launching and landing a kite, do occur on land. Hmmmmm..... interesting.



bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
or insisting again and again that not wearing is only about fashion.
I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it.


bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
Also showing some close-mindedness about how differently kitesurfing happens in other parts of the world.
Phisics works the same everywhere on this planet, for our purposes. Hitting a rock with your head at 25kph is going to have the same result everywhere. The only variable is whether or not the kiter was wearing a helmet.


bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
Because of that I very much questioned your own version of logic and reasoning, and they do not convince me, and I personally disregard them on the basis of unsound reasoning and twisted logic. Nothing about how your posts make me "feel".
How is my logic "twisted"? How is my reasoning "unsound"? Please explain, as that is the only way to convince others. If you cant explain your determination here, than it is demonstrably JUST FEELINGS.

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
As you say, my choice. And also my choice to try for the first time some of the fantastic software features of that forum, to hide your posts. To be perfectly honest, I also discovered some hidden features that automagically replace a.s.s.h.o.l.e by something more palatable.
Hiding from logic, reasoning, and physics, wont make them go away. Confront your feelings issues head on (pun intended), and work through your anger with an open mind. That's much more healthy, from a mental stand point, than ignoring reality.
Do you actually read what other people are write?

First you say:

"No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it. "

Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???

Then you say:

"I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it."

Plenty of people have given you reasons, you just refuse to listen, because you have build up this idea in you head, that people feel like, and are considered kooks when wearing helmet. For me personally they are irretating as hell, especially when riding in really hot or really cold weather. In general I want to wear as little as possible, no wetsuit, no booties and no helmets ect.. As soon as I put these things on its a compromise. The hotter it gets the bigger the compromise, and when kiting in a place like fx Egypt, I did wear a helmet, but must admit I was very close to setting the thing on fire, and can surtainly understand, that wearing a helmet in a place like that could be too big a compromise for some. When riding with a neopren hoodie in really cold weather, its even more annoying, that thing sits more on top of the head than around(probably reduces safety as well), I don't think the helmet makers considered neoprenhoodies when designing their helmets. Might be some helmets used for snowsports that could work. So yes plenty of good arguments for not wearing one.

It's all about personal compromise. How much does it annoy me versus how much does it protect me. I have no idea how many headtraumas we see in kiting world wide, and I have no idea how many have been or could have been avoided by the use of helmets. But here in Denmark there has been very few incidents(maybe 5-10) in the 20 years I have been kiting. So to be honest an every day walk in trafic here in Copenhagen is probably more likely to result in a headtrauma. I also have no idea how much, if any protection, a helmet actually provides. Still when kiting I use one, beacuse I assume it makes me safer, only and an assumption though. But I also both kite a lot in fairly shallow water, and do a fair bit of foiling, which is wear I hope a helmet can offer some protection.

I can definitely see user scenarios where the compromise tilts the other way. Where and how your kite definitely plays a part in this compromise. When driving my car or walking down the stairs, I don't use one. Thats where the compromise became to big for me. But I guess you never take your helmet off?
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby downunder » Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:30 am

This discussion is not about helmets at all.

But situation to face death, or for some, brain death but otherwise alive. Like Schumacher. It is simple, really, if not scared about this, there is nothing to worry about. If you worry, than take as much body armour as possible. Temp fix tho.

Have no problem whatsoever with injuries or death.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby vannibombonato » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:02 pm

KimAndersen wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 am
Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:58 am
bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
When I said obtuse views, it's in reference to your incapacity of accepting some of the facts presented herein so far. Like dismissing the sensory effects of head gear, or the specificities of water based activities vs hard surface activities, or insisting again and again that not wearing is only about fashion. Also showing some close-mindedness about how differently kitesurfing happens in other parts of the world. Because of that I very much questioned your own version of logic and reasoning, and they do not convince me, and I personally disregard them on the basis of unsound reasoning and twisted logic. Nothing about how your posts make me "feel".

As you say, my choice. And also my choice to try for the first time some of the fantastic software features of that forum, to hide your posts. To be perfectly honest, I also discovered some hidden features that automagically replace a.s.s.h.o.l.e by something more palatable.
Bit worked up, are we? That's ok.



bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
When I said obtuse views, it's in reference to your incapacity of accepting some of the facts presented herein so far. Like dismissing the sensory effects of head gear,
No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it.



bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
or the specificities of water based activities vs hard surface activities,
Funny, I thought that these deaths were the result of hitting something other than water? Wait.... I think kiters typically launch and land on land near "non water based objects". So it seems that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the most danger, as in launching and landing a kite, do occur on land. Hmmmmm..... interesting.



bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
or insisting again and again that not wearing is only about fashion.
I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it.


bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
Also showing some close-mindedness about how differently kitesurfing happens in other parts of the world.
Phisics works the same everywhere on this planet, for our purposes. Hitting a rock with your head at 25kph is going to have the same result everywhere. The only variable is whether or not the kiter was wearing a helmet.


bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
Because of that I very much questioned your own version of logic and reasoning, and they do not convince me, and I personally disregard them on the basis of unsound reasoning and twisted logic. Nothing about how your posts make me "feel".
How is my logic "twisted"? How is my reasoning "unsound"? Please explain, as that is the only way to convince others. If you cant explain your determination here, than it is demonstrably JUST FEELINGS.

bragnouff wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:22 am
As you say, my choice. And also my choice to try for the first time some of the fantastic software features of that forum, to hide your posts. To be perfectly honest, I also discovered some hidden features that automagically replace a.s.s.h.o.l.e by something more palatable.
Hiding from logic, reasoning, and physics, wont make them go away. Confront your feelings issues head on (pun intended), and work through your anger with an open mind. That's much more healthy, from a mental stand point, than ignoring reality.
Do you actually read what other people are write?

First you say:

"No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it. "

Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???

Then you say:

"I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it."

Plenty of people have given you reasons, you just refuse to listen, because you have build up this idea in you head, that people feel like, and are considered kooks when wearing helmet. For me personally they are irretating as hell, especially when riding in really hot or really cold weather. In general I want to wear as little as possible, no wetsuit, no booties and no helmets ect.. As soon as I put these things on its a compromise. The hotter it gets the bigger the compromise, and when kiting in a place like fx Egypt, I did wear a helmet, but must admit I was very close to setting the thing on fire, and can surtainly understand, that wearing a helmet in a place like that could be too big a compromise for some. When riding with a neopren hoodie in really cold weather, its even more annoying, that thing sits more on top of the head than around(probably reduces safety as well), I don't think the helmet makers considered neoprenhoodies when designing their helmets. Might be some helmets used for snowsports that could work. So yes plenty of good arguments for not wearing one.

It's all about personal compromise. How much does it annoy me versus how much does it protect me. I have no idea how many headtraumas we see in kiting world wide, and I have no idea how many have been or could have been avoided by the use of helmets. But here in Denmark there has been very few incidents(maybe 5-10) in the 20 years I have been kiting. So to be honest an every day walk in trafic here in Copenhagen is probably more likely to result in a headtrauma. I also have no idea how much, if any protection, a helmet actually provides. Still when kiting I use one, beacuse I assume it makes me safer, only and an assumption though. But I also both kite a lot in fairly shallow water, and do a fair bit of foiling, which is wear I hope a helmet can offer some protection.

I can definitely see user scenarios where the compromise tilts the other way. Where and how your kite definitely plays a part in this compromise. When driving my car or walking down the stairs, I don't use one. Thats where the compromise became to big for me. But I guess you never take your helmet off?
"Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???"

I think this should end the debate, as it will never go anywhere.

When people ask for evidence that helmets offer head protection and thus reduce the chances of a major head injury / consequences (like being knocked out and not being able anymore to activate a QR), what can you answer? Nothing.

But i do have a constructive proposal: let's run the study ourselves to determine whether helmets reduce or not the consequences of a solid impact on our heads.
I propose we divide ourselves in "helmet users" vs. "non helmet users". We take a friend, we sit down, and we film ourselves while the friend drops us a board on our head. From 50cm, then from 1m, then from 2m. And we film the effect on our heads.

I'll be on the helmet team. I propose to let the non helmets guys choose the exact position/angle from which the board should be dropped.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby jumptheshark » Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:32 pm

You guys are hilarious. Just love talking in circles. That near pathologically insistence and repetition is what is branding our prime contributor as a forum kook. Paired with photos of rather kooky fashion sense and his general history here of similar interaction style on pretty much every other beat to death issue will forever cement his place as a hopeless kite kook and sadly push our sport's online presence one more increment toward that edge of the spectrum. Railing against those in this thread that actually wear helmets just highlights the insular thinking that he just cant seem to perceive.

Then there are the others, who for some reason insist on refuting the absolute face value to the concept that even a remotely appropriate helmet serves as protection despite no randomized controlled trials within the kiteboarding science field to prove it.

Really this and many other threads just highlight the insatiable need for many to simply win an argument, or at least feel that way for a few moments after they press submit. Well that and the emergence of yet more posters whose main goal is simply to irritate by finding yet new ways to attempt to stir the pot without ever really adding anything constructive. Yeah, more trolls. Hard to fathom the motivation.

Anyway. Happy head injuries. Get out there !

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby KimAndersen » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:10 pm

vannibombonato wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:02 pm
KimAndersen wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 am
Matteo V wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:58 am


Bit worked up, are we? That's ok.






No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it.






Funny, I thought that these deaths were the result of hitting something other than water? Wait.... I think kiters typically launch and land on land near "non water based objects". So it seems that it is perfectly reasonable to assume that the most danger, as in launching and landing a kite, do occur on land. Hmmmmm..... interesting.






I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it.





Phisics works the same everywhere on this planet, for our purposes. Hitting a rock with your head at 25kph is going to have the same result everywhere. The only variable is whether or not the kiter was wearing a helmet.





How is my logic "twisted"? How is my reasoning "unsound"? Please explain, as that is the only way to convince others. If you cant explain your determination here, than it is demonstrably JUST FEELINGS.




Hiding from logic, reasoning, and physics, wont make them go away. Confront your feelings issues head on (pun intended), and work through your anger with an open mind. That's much more healthy, from a mental stand point, than ignoring reality.
Do you actually read what other people are write?

First you say:

"No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it. "

Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???

Then you say:

"I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it."

Plenty of people have given you reasons, you just refuse to listen, because you have build up this idea in you head, that people feel like, and are considered kooks when wearing helmet. For me personally they are irretating as hell, especially when riding in really hot or really cold weather. In general I want to wear as little as possible, no wetsuit, no booties and no helmets ect.. As soon as I put these things on its a compromise. The hotter it gets the bigger the compromise, and when kiting in a place like fx Egypt, I did wear a helmet, but must admit I was very close to setting the thing on fire, and can surtainly understand, that wearing a helmet in a place like that could be too big a compromise for some. When riding with a neopren hoodie in really cold weather, its even more annoying, that thing sits more on top of the head than around(probably reduces safety as well), I don't think the helmet makers considered neoprenhoodies when designing their helmets. Might be some helmets used for snowsports that could work. So yes plenty of good arguments for not wearing one.

It's all about personal compromise. How much does it annoy me versus how much does it protect me. I have no idea how many headtraumas we see in kiting world wide, and I have no idea how many have been or could have been avoided by the use of helmets. But here in Denmark there has been very few incidents(maybe 5-10) in the 20 years I have been kiting. So to be honest an every day walk in trafic here in Copenhagen is probably more likely to result in a headtrauma. I also have no idea how much, if any protection, a helmet actually provides. Still when kiting I use one, beacuse I assume it makes me safer, only and an assumption though. But I also both kite a lot in fairly shallow water, and do a fair bit of foiling, which is wear I hope a helmet can offer some protection.

I can definitely see user scenarios where the compromise tilts the other way. Where and how your kite definitely plays a part in this compromise. When driving my car or walking down the stairs, I don't use one. Thats where the compromise became to big for me. But I guess you never take your helmet off?
"Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???"

I think this should end the debate, as it will never go anywhere.

When people ask for evidence that helmets offer head protection and thus reduce the chances of a major head injury / consequences (like being knocked out and not being able anymore to activate a QR), what can you answer? Nothing.

But i do have a constructive proposal: let's run the study ourselves to determine whether helmets reduce or not the consequences of a solid impact on our heads.
I propose we divide ourselves in "helmet users" vs. "non helmet users". We take a friend, we sit down, and we film ourselves while the friend drops us a board on our head. From 50cm, then from 1m, then from 2m. And we film the effect on our heads.

I'll be on the helmet team. I propose to let the non helmets guys choose the exact position/angle from which the board should be dropped.
Again, do you guys actually read what other people post before you answer?

I am not asking for evidence as to the effect of using helmets when kitesurfing, as I sincerely doubt such evidence exist or will ever be provided. I am merely pointing out that Matteo himself is asking for evidence, that doesn’t exist.
As to you little experiment with dropping the board on your head, I have already commented on that in an earlier post, but you must have missed the post or the point, so I will try again.
First of all the experiment you are proposing is not very scientific, but take it you already know that. Secondly I am not refuting that helmets offer protection, as I believe they do. What I am not so sure about is the extent of the protection, and possible unforeseen safety drawbacks of wearing one.

Here bicycle helmets go through vigorous testing and have to meet official standards. Kitehelmets on the other hand go through no official testing and have to meet no official standards, at least that’s how it is in Denmark, might differ in your country. Hence the kite helmets I have seen and used, do not come anywhere near the standards of bicycle helmets in regards to quality and fit. Some of the things I know they look at when testing bicycle helmets, is fit. This is most likely because a bad fitting helmet, doesn’t offer nearly the same protection. And as I said, I am yet to find a kite helmet that actually provides a decent fit especially when wearing a neoprene hoodie, might look in to some snowsports helmets in hope of finding something better. Another thing is how they react to a hard impact, here bicycle helmets have to break quite easily as to avoid too much energy of the impact being transferred to the head. This is apparently where a lot of helmets do not meet the official standards, and sincerely doubt any of the kitehelmets I have seen or used will meet these standards.

Your little experiment offers absolutely no insights into, if there are any drawbacks to wearing a kite helmet in a hard impact. I am just hoping there are no severe drawbacks, therefore I use a helmet. What the experiment does offer is that I can probably avoid a headache by wearing a helmet when dropping a board from 50 cm. height onto my head. But as I suggested earlier you could do the same experiment by hitting your head hard on a staircase with and without a helmet. Does that make you wear a helmet everytime you are walking down the stairs?

So I am by no means anti helmet, I use one everytime I am out. But I can see why some people might not want to use one, as it is a compromise. And I could fear that, that there might actually be safety drawbacks, to the shitty helmets offered in todays market.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Toby » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:24 pm

are wakeboard helmets tested? If so, we can use those...

maybe GKA can take a lead in a certification process, like we see with QRs.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby vannibombonato » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:25 pm

KimAndersen wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:10 pm
vannibombonato wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:02 pm
KimAndersen wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:09 am


Do you actually read what other people are write?

First you say:

"No evidence exists that helmet use leads to any reduction of performance due to some sensory deprivation. If you could show some shred of evidence that it did, I can absolutely guarantee that any effect would be minimized to insignificance by always wearing a helmet - e.g., getting used to it. "

Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???

Then you say:

"I cannot find any other reason to not wear a helmet. All of the other arguments make no logical sense. And the fact that me calling it out as such only results in "feelings" being shot back at me, just confirms it."

Plenty of people have given you reasons, you just refuse to listen, because you have build up this idea in you head, that people feel like, and are considered kooks when wearing helmet. For me personally they are irretating as hell, especially when riding in really hot or really cold weather. In general I want to wear as little as possible, no wetsuit, no booties and no helmets ect.. As soon as I put these things on its a compromise. The hotter it gets the bigger the compromise, and when kiting in a place like fx Egypt, I did wear a helmet, but must admit I was very close to setting the thing on fire, and can surtainly understand, that wearing a helmet in a place like that could be too big a compromise for some. When riding with a neopren hoodie in really cold weather, its even more annoying, that thing sits more on top of the head than around(probably reduces safety as well), I don't think the helmet makers considered neoprenhoodies when designing their helmets. Might be some helmets used for snowsports that could work. So yes plenty of good arguments for not wearing one.

It's all about personal compromise. How much does it annoy me versus how much does it protect me. I have no idea how many headtraumas we see in kiting world wide, and I have no idea how many have been or could have been avoided by the use of helmets. But here in Denmark there has been very few incidents(maybe 5-10) in the 20 years I have been kiting. So to be honest an every day walk in trafic here in Copenhagen is probably more likely to result in a headtrauma. I also have no idea how much, if any protection, a helmet actually provides. Still when kiting I use one, beacuse I assume it makes me safer, only and an assumption though. But I also both kite a lot in fairly shallow water, and do a fair bit of foiling, which is wear I hope a helmet can offer some protection.

I can definitely see user scenarios where the compromise tilts the other way. Where and how your kite definitely plays a part in this compromise. When driving my car or walking down the stairs, I don't use one. Thats where the compromise became to big for me. But I guess you never take your helmet off?
"Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???"

I think this should end the debate, as it will never go anywhere.

When people ask for evidence that helmets offer head protection and thus reduce the chances of a major head injury / consequences (like being knocked out and not being able anymore to activate a QR), what can you answer? Nothing.

But i do have a constructive proposal: let's run the study ourselves to determine whether helmets reduce or not the consequences of a solid impact on our heads.
I propose we divide ourselves in "helmet users" vs. "non helmet users". We take a friend, we sit down, and we film ourselves while the friend drops us a board on our head. From 50cm, then from 1m, then from 2m. And we film the effect on our heads.

I'll be on the helmet team. I propose to let the non helmets guys choose the exact position/angle from which the board should be dropped.
Again, do you guys actually read what other people post before you answer?

I am not asking for evidence as to the effect of using helmets when kitesurfing, as I sincerely doubt such evidence exist or will ever be provided. I am merely pointing out that Matteo himself is asking for evidence, that doesn’t exist.
As to you little experiment with dropping the board on your head, I have already commented on that in an earlier post, but you must have missed the post or the point, so I will try again.
First of all the experiment you are proposing is not very scientific, but take it you already know that. Secondly I am not refuting that helmets offer protection, as I believe they do. What I am not so sure about is the extent of the protection, and possible unforeseen safety drawbacks of wearing one.

Here bicycle helmets go through vigorous testing and have to meet official standards. Kitehelmets on the other hand go through no official testing and have to meet no official standards, at least that’s how it is in Denmark, might differ in your country. Hence the kite helmets I have seen and used, do not come anywhere near the standards of bicycle helmets in regards to quality and fit. Some of the things I know they look at when testing bicycle helmets, is fit. This is most likely because a bad fitting helmet, doesn’t offer nearly the same protection. And as I said, I am yet to find a kite helmet that actually provides a decent fit especially when wearing a neoprene hoodie, might look in to some snowsports helmets in hope of finding something better. Another thing is how they react to a hard impact, here bicycle helmets have to break quite easily as to avoid too much energy of the impact being transferred to the head. This is apparently where a lot of helmets do not meet the official standards, and sincerely doubt any of the kitehelmets I have seen or used will meet these standards.

Your little experiment offers absolutely no insights into, if there are any drawbacks to wearing a kite helmet in a hard impact. I am just hoping there are no severe drawbacks, therefore I use a helmet. What the experiment does offer is that I can probably avoid a headache by wearing a helmet when dropping a board from 50 cm. height onto my head. But as I suggested earlier you could do the same experiment by hitting your head hard on a staircase with and without a helmet. Does that make you wear a helmet everytime you are walking down the stairs?

So I am by no means anti helmet, I use one everytime I am out. But I can see why some people might not want to use one, as it is a compromise. And I could fear that, that there might actually be safety drawbacks, to the shitty helmets offered in todays market.
It’s the “drawbacks” part that we just don’t get. Cause an helmet that does not break on impact won’t increase the energy of the impact, at worse it will be less effective than a better helmet, but in any case way better than no helmet at all.
As those drawbacks have to offset the reduced chance of permanent brain injury, and thus would need to be astonishingly big.

And since I personally think that the biggest drawback of many, many, many non helmet users goes basically down to fashion, hence my conclusions.

And no, I have no “scientific” poll to quote, just 10+ years of in field experience talking to people.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby matth » Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:52 pm

I agree it is about fashion. Helmets are always beneficial when you smack your mellon on a hard object, that's why I wear a helmet foiling and most likely always will. Beyond foiling, I choose not to wear a helmet because I feel the risk is low and I prefer the feeling of the cool breeze and sun tanning my bald head. I also don't dress up like a fisherman in full-body yellow rain gear when it's pouring out because I would rather get a little wet than look like a kook... to each their own....
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Matteo V (Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:07 pm) • jumptheshark (Tue Jun 15, 2021 3:47 pm)
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby KimAndersen » Tue Jun 15, 2021 2:05 pm

vannibombonato wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:25 pm
KimAndersen wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 1:10 pm
vannibombonato wrote:
Tue Jun 15, 2021 12:02 pm


"Same goes the other way around, no evidence that they don't reduce performance and no evidence that they actually protect you. Only guesswork. As I stated earlier I also believe in using helmet, because I assume they make me safer. But demanding evidence, but not presenting any yourself???"

I think this should end the debate, as it will never go anywhere.

When people ask for evidence that helmets offer head protection and thus reduce the chances of a major head injury / consequences (like being knocked out and not being able anymore to activate a QR), what can you answer? Nothing.

But i do have a constructive proposal: let's run the study ourselves to determine whether helmets reduce or not the consequences of a solid impact on our heads.
I propose we divide ourselves in "helmet users" vs. "non helmet users". We take a friend, we sit down, and we film ourselves while the friend drops us a board on our head. From 50cm, then from 1m, then from 2m. And we film the effect on our heads.

I'll be on the helmet team. I propose to let the non helmets guys choose the exact position/angle from which the board should be dropped.
Again, do you guys actually read what other people post before you answer?

I am not asking for evidence as to the effect of using helmets when kitesurfing, as I sincerely doubt such evidence exist or will ever be provided. I am merely pointing out that Matteo himself is asking for evidence, that doesn’t exist.
As to you little experiment with dropping the board on your head, I have already commented on that in an earlier post, but you must have missed the post or the point, so I will try again.
First of all the experiment you are proposing is not very scientific, but take it you already know that. Secondly I am not refuting that helmets offer protection, as I believe they do. What I am not so sure about is the extent of the protection, and possible unforeseen safety drawbacks of wearing one.

Here bicycle helmets go through vigorous testing and have to meet official standards. Kitehelmets on the other hand go through no official testing and have to meet no official standards, at least that’s how it is in Denmark, might differ in your country. Hence the kite helmets I have seen and used, do not come anywhere near the standards of bicycle helmets in regards to quality and fit. Some of the things I know they look at when testing bicycle helmets, is fit. This is most likely because a bad fitting helmet, doesn’t offer nearly the same protection. And as I said, I am yet to find a kite helmet that actually provides a decent fit especially when wearing a neoprene hoodie, might look in to some snowsports helmets in hope of finding something better. Another thing is how they react to a hard impact, here bicycle helmets have to break quite easily as to avoid too much energy of the impact being transferred to the head. This is apparently where a lot of helmets do not meet the official standards, and sincerely doubt any of the kitehelmets I have seen or used will meet these standards.

Your little experiment offers absolutely no insights into, if there are any drawbacks to wearing a kite helmet in a hard impact. I am just hoping there are no severe drawbacks, therefore I use a helmet. What the experiment does offer is that I can probably avoid a headache by wearing a helmet when dropping a board from 50 cm. height onto my head. But as I suggested earlier you could do the same experiment by hitting your head hard on a staircase with and without a helmet. Does that make you wear a helmet everytime you are walking down the stairs?

So I am by no means anti helmet, I use one everytime I am out. But I can see why some people might not want to use one, as it is a compromise. And I could fear that, that there might actually be safety drawbacks, to the shitty helmets offered in todays market.
It’s the “drawbacks” part that we just don’t get. Cause an helmet that does not break on impact won’t increase the energy of the impact, at worse it will be less effective than a better helmet, but in any case way better than no helmet at all.
As those drawbacks have to offset the reduced chance of permanent brain injury, and thus would need to be astonishingly big.

And since I personally think that the biggest drawback of many, many, many non helmet users goes basically down to fashion, hence my conclusions.

And no, I have no “scientific” poll to quote, just 10+ years of in field experience talking to people.
I do think it’s a little more complicated than that, as posted earlier, in regards to bicycle helmets some studies have supposedly shown that not breaking on impact can make things worse. But this might be complete bullshit, I am not expert in physics, so I choose wear one, and just hope it is bullshit. It just goes to show that gut feelings and test by dropping a board on your head doesn’t necessarily give you the complete picture. So for people to questions the effects of helmets is not stupid, and has nothing to do with fashion.

I am sure for some people it is a fashion thing, but for people I know not using a helmet it is more a question of when to compromise and when not to. So people make a sort of cost/benefit.

I bet you do the same everyday, or do you just go around with a helmet all day.

Do you fx. wear a helmet when walking on the street, you could get hit by a car, a bike or some other hard object, or you could simply slip and fall, happens to people in the shower all the time. What about driving a car, you also wear a helmet there?


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