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How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

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Matteo V
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Matteo V » Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:32 am

bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:46 pm
I don't kite near rocks. I fear rocks, and wearing a helmet will not reduce my fear of rocks.
Hard packed sand, that you can ride a narrow tired bicycle on, is virtually the same as rocks to your head. And any time you have a kite launching or in the air, you have the potential to become a statistic for a host of reasons like a line break (I've seen a brand new never used steering line snap), sudden gust, rotor, or simple misjudgment of wind speed or local conditions.



bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:46 pm
2) Do surfers wear helmets much? not that many. Typically you learn to resurface with your hands protecting your face/head, and you have some situational awareness of where your board is when you fall. I typically don't wear a leash when kiting, so the board isn't kept nearby. Fun fact, last time I got injured surfing, I took a board across the eye socket, needed 7 stitches. Helmet wouldn't have changed anything. Was just a wrong decision to ride in a busy lineup.
Eureka! You've discovered that there is no control bar to occupy your hands in prone surfing! Thus they are free to cover your head where you assume the board may impact you as you are being rolled in a wave.

And imagine that! I guess it makes sense that the helmet wont protect your nose, big toe, or even your taint..... because that's not what its covering! See now you're thinking.



bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:46 pm
5) There is some level of discomfort, noise, ... It can be minimal, or you can actually enjoy it, even. But don't deny it for f*ck's sake! Again, same like booties, hood, sunscreen, sunglasses, ... long pants, underwear, shoes,... All with a downside to a degree. And we make personal, educated choices about each of them.
The "educated choice" here? The risk you are reducing is a dirt nap (death), not seeing your kids grow up, getting kiteboarding banned at your local beach for EVERYONE, or brain dammage that could actually be a bit of an issue to kite with. What kind of noise are we talking to risk any of those things for? Will you be deaf in a year if kiting with a helmet? This would be the first time I've heard that excuse.



bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:46 pm
Do wear a helmet, get used to it so that it feels comfortable and second nature, but don't ever rely on that and skip using your brain for safety.
No one is stating that a helmet is a magic shield. And no one is an advocate for using a helmet specifically so you can do things you normally would not to without a helmet.

Plain and simple - be safe, think things through, be conscientious of others, and wear a helmet too. You cant predict every circumstance, nor can your skills be up for ever unforeseen event. Wearing a helmet costs nothing compared to the costs of not wearing one, and needing it.



bragnouff wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 9:46 pm
Hey, I never ever advocated for not wearing a helmet. But I'm kind of reacting to your ideology and the irritating way you're debating things.
So........... you admit that your "feelings" are more of an issue than the reality of the situation. Thanks, for making that one easy.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby bragnouff » Thu Jun 10, 2021 3:52 am

oh, come on... it's impossible to expose my point of view and my reasons about why I don't usually wear one when kiting on water, without triggering a moronic attack. (not too much of a surprise actually)

Educated choices are about assessing the severity of an event, assessing the likelihood of such event, and the effort of eliminating that risk.
So a big head injury is clearly extremely severe, not arguing about that. I pointed out that through mitigation, choice of conditions, choice of gear, care during setup, awareness, local knowledge and prudent behaviour, ... I estimate that the probability of such an event to happen is an extremely small number. Estimation is so far pretty accurate, I've been kiting a lot over the last 22 yrs, and had zero impact to my head so far. No lofting or getting dragged out of control either. Used my QRs quite a few times of course.

Of course there is always a remaining possibility of a freak accident. it's also statistically possible to be hit by a golf ball when crossing a park, or by a flying hubcap when walking down the street, or even getting struck by a meteor while you're watching Netflix at home... Plenty of stray bullets flying in the US of A... The Big Guy in the sky is pretty resourceful when it comes to freak things, and I'm sure He'd find a way to achieve His mysterious goals even if you'd be wearing a helmet... (it's just a metaphor, btw, not an invitation for a theological debate!)

Effort of reducing that risk further through the use of a watersports helmet is, I agree, not that big. Need to find a helmet that is comfortable enough, and spend enough time using it to get over the discomfort, and affected perception/hearing. But at the end of the day, the risk isn't entirely eliminated, it is just reduced somewhat.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby jbrodin » Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:28 am

A helmet saved my life. A gust trew me into a tree during self launching my kite. I woke up in the hospital, I still don't remember the incident, but the state of the helmet is proof enough. I definetely never became less cautious because of wearing a helmet. Not that I think this will change any minds. In the end we all make our own choices and the risks associated with kiting is a part of why we even do it at all.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Pemba » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:34 am

vannibombonato wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:30 pm
Pemba wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:14 pm
vannibombonato wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 11:57 am


Except when you hit a board, another kiter, or actually rocks or anything on earth. Which is stuff that we know for a fact does happen to kitesurfers.

So what the heck are we exactly debating?

Once again, i can be fine in somebody telling me "i don't wear it because XYZ and the risk of injuring my head is low".
I can't accept people who push it as far as questioning whether it's safer overall to have an helmet or not. That's just too stupid.
Whats obvious to you but isn't obvious to others is unacceptable to you and you call those that question your opinion "too stupid", because you are obviously right.. There can be no debate then. Obviously.

Although I don't wear one, I also think that a helmet is safer, especially in places with rocks. But I try to follow and respect other ideas. They often help me develop mine and show how many things aren't as obvious as I might have thought. We're all different.
No, i have no respect for the "opinion" of people who believe the earth is flat.
Each and everyone of us is entitled to have their own ideas and beliefs, each and everyone is entitled to express them, and i'm for sure entitled to call something stupid when i see it (i'll repeat it: STUPID, not "different").
You're entitled... Sure, by law you probably are and so are they. Freedom of expression and all. I don't think anybody was going to sue you. I find it unconstructive. But being constructive is maybe not your biggest concern.
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Pemba » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:39 am

jbrodin wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:28 am
A helmet saved my life. A gust trew me into a tree during self launching my kite. I woke up in the hospital, I still don't remember the incident, but the state of the helmet is proof enough. I definetely never became less cautious because of wearing a helmet. Not that I think this will change any minds. In the end we all make our own choices and the risks associated with kiting is a part of why we even do it at all.
Wearing a helmet to me involves weighing a number of things, I'm not "for" or "against". Your experience is certainly noteworthy and sits quite heavily on one side of the scale. It does not "change" my mind but it does influence it.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby vannibombonato » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 am

Pemba wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:34 am
vannibombonato wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:30 pm
Pemba wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:14 pm


Whats obvious to you but isn't obvious to others is unacceptable to you and you call those that question your opinion "too stupid", because you are obviously right.. There can be no debate then. Obviously.

Although I don't wear one, I also think that a helmet is safer, especially in places with rocks. But I try to follow and respect other ideas. They often help me develop mine and show how many things aren't as obvious as I might have thought. We're all different.
No, i have no respect for the "opinion" of people who believe the earth is flat.
Each and everyone of us is entitled to have their own ideas and beliefs, each and everyone is entitled to express them, and i'm for sure entitled to call something stupid when i see it (i'll repeat it: STUPID, not "different").
You're entitled... Sure, by law you probably are and so are they. Freedom of expression and all. I don't think anybody was going to sue you. I find it unconstructive. But being constructive is maybe not your biggest concern.
You can't be constructive with idiots. How can i be constructive with someone debating whether wearing an helmet is safer vs. not wearing it? The only reasonable thing to do is to just not debate with someone like that, just like i don't spend my time into debating with flat-earthers and the likes.

I'm into this post just for a sense of responsibility: maybe someone will read this "debate" and choose to wear an helmet. And maybe that someone will have his life saved.

I have spent years visiting an hospital where people with brain damages are kept, and i can tell you that in his Inferno Dante could not imagine something even close to what i've witnessed many times.
And i'm willing to spend 10 minutes per day into possibly helping someone not to end there.

There is a micro, micro chance for this to happen, i know that, but it's enough for me to post.
Last edited by vannibombonato on Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Havre » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:59 am

I came to the same conclusion, vanni.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby KimAndersen » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:39 am

Matteo V wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:35 pm
PullStrings wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 3:58 pm
Challenge for those who wear helmets all the time.

For a few sessions don't wear one and report here how it made you feel.

Choices could be :

Nervous scared

Naked

Free liberated

Etc
I dont wear a helmet for how it "feels". I wear one because:

1. It protects the only organ that you cannot get a transplant for if you ruin it.

2. Getting knocked out by your board flung at you by a wave leads to drowning, or paralysis if you cannot dive under the next set coming in.

3. Getting knocked out on a fall from height on hard packed sand, then no longer being able to control the kite or activate its safety, can lead to death from a secondary impact.

4. Getting knocked out upon impact on hard packed sand could lead to injury to innocent bystanders even if it does not kill me, because you cannot control a kite while unconcious.

5 AND THERE IS ABSOUTELY NO DOWNSIDE TO HELMET USE - the idea that there is a downside to helmets is a completely concocted fairy tale made up by those who are desperate to hide thier own insecurities about why they are too insecure to use them.


Pulley, how about you try to put reality before your "feels". Maybe you are young and still have that new university training of "feels before reality" fresh in your mind. For your sake, and the sake of us that enjoy having our beaches open to kiteboarding, I can only hope that you once again come to embrace logic and reason as you grow up.

Wow things are black and white in some peoples world.

I wear a helmet everytime I go out kiting, and would recommend everyone else to do so too. But to be honest, I am not really sure, it is much safer in most cases. Not one single kitehelmet I have seen on the market, would be approved as a bikehelmet here, or approved by any other official standards for that matter. Probably several reasons for this, the most important one being, they are not likely to break on impact, and therefore not releasing any energy.

I am by no means an expert on the subject, and therefore as stated I always wear a helmet, hoping it might save me. But in relations to bikehelmets it has often been discussed if wearing a bad helmet is actually worse than no helmet. Therefore I am kind of alarmed, that people find it stupid to even discuss the idea.

And as this is an international forum, it puzzles me that people can't see local conditions might have an impact on decission making. The same goes for keeping beaches open. I live in Denmark, and we sure as hell have rules for most things, and yes kiting is banned at some beaches around here, but that is due to nature and animal protection. Closing beaches due to people hurting themselves kiting would be absolute absurd here. So that idea must be a local thing.

And to say, THERE IS ABSOUTELY NO DOWNSIDE TO HELMET USE??? Helmets can be really irretating, some more than others (I have been to through quite a few), but general quality and fit of most kitehelmets is awful and as stated above meets absolutely no official danish safety standards, that might differ in other countries. Local conditions play a role here too. When I kite in Denmark (usually cold), the helmet dosen't irretate me that much, That said, as soon as it gets really cold and we have to wear hoodies, I am yet find one that fits properly, and here I doubt the effect of the helmet even more because of the shitty fit. Best solution for fit and safety so far has been an actual bikehelmet, but that thing just doesnt agree with saltwater. I have also been on a couple if trips to Egypt (hot as hell), where the discomfort was great enough, that I was close to throwing the damn thing away.

So yes, in my opinion there are most definently downsides to wearing a helmet, to me at least the downsides are just outweighed by the upside of protecting my head, eventhough that might not actually be the case.

Point being, things aren't always so black and white.
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Havre » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:43 am

For a stupid idiot that is a fairly good post Kim :thumb:

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Pemba » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:27 am

vannibombonato wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:52 am
Pemba wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:34 am
vannibombonato wrote:
Wed Jun 09, 2021 4:30 pm


No, i have no respect for the "opinion" of people who believe the earth is flat.
Each and everyone of us is entitled to have their own ideas and beliefs, each and everyone is entitled to express them, and i'm for sure entitled to call something stupid when i see it (i'll repeat it: STUPID, not "different").
You're entitled... Sure, by law you probably are and so are they. Freedom of expression and all. I don't think anybody was going to sue you. I find it unconstructive. But being constructive is maybe not your biggest concern.
You can't be constructive with idiots. How can i be constructive with someone debating whether wearing an helmet is safer vs. not wearing it? The only reasonable thing to do is to just not debate with someone like that, just like i don't spend my time into debating with flat-earthers and the likes.

I'm into this post just for a sense of responsibility: maybe someone will read this "debate" and choose to wear an helmet. And maybe that someone will have his life saved.

I have spent years visiting an hospital where people with brain damages are kept, and i can tell you that in his Inferno Dante could not imagine something even close to what i've witnessed many times.
And i'm willing to spend 10 minutes per day into possibly helping someone not to end there.

There is a micro, micro chance for this to happen, i know that, but it's enough for me to post.
I suggest you will have a better chance changing someone's mind by addressing issues raised then by calling them idiots because it's obvious they are wrong.

I don't think anybody would argue about the examples repeatedly given of situations where a helmet would help (headbutting a rock, a board, a tree etc). Why repeat them over and over and call people idiots for not understanding ? Why not address the perceived negatives of helmets given, or the likelihood of accidents happening or being avoided in stead ? For example somebody on here said that helmets should never have a bill with example and explanation. That was useful information to me, it is something I will pay attention to when I buy a helmet. Anyway, I don't want to patronize people, I'm moving on I think.


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