How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

[Matteo V]

Yes.

Because they (helmets) introduce false sense of safety.

Fact for u:

- I broke me back and was learning to walk again. Why I broke it? Because I thought Im safe of injuries. False.

- since than broke me collar bone and ankle.

How did helmet reduce my overall safety?

How did helmet helped to two people who broke a neck and one person who is not walking again, ever?

Not increases, dont reverse the theory. But not reduces either, unless crippled below the neck is better than be dead. Sure some ppl survived coz of the helmet. But also ppl survived in any other situation. More people drowned than hitting the head. And its not only head, correct? Internal injuries do not count?

There is no enough data to support any of the theories.

Yet, kiting is way more safe if, and only if we do not take this for granted. The best protection is to think, watch and keep distance.

Helmet does not do that for u.

I have no idea what could be in your head to think that taking the precaution of wearing a helmet, would mean that contientious of a person would be less conscientious because of that conscientiousness????

And conversely, what could possibly make you think some one who chooses not to use safety gear, would try to operate more safely because they chose not to use that safety gear????


I am 100% confident that your logic is not entirely sound. But it is a perfect example of the mentality that leads to some of the easily preventable fatalities.

[downunder]

^
Read from the start of this thread. Read what Havre is saying.

Stop quoting me or anyone else as I mentioned to you many many times.

You going personal in your replys mate, steering ppl off this site...

[Kitetwin-1]

Situational awareness trumps personal protective equipment, having said that I don't belittle someone for wearing a helmet or other protective gear. I have a wife and daughter in this spot, Im all in.

[or6]

The thing with people is we're all different, and we react differently..theres no 'logic' or a given manner of reacting to wearing a helmet. It might make some people overconfident, others it might make more careful...others again would be indifferent to it, certainly after getting used to wearing one.

I wear a helmet when hydrofoiling only. I feel fine without it on a waveboard or TT. I feel uncomfortable not wearing my impact vest, which very rarely happens...but that's just me.

We're all different, respect that. There's no right or wrong here.

RIP young Spanish friend.

[Matteo V]

The thing with people is we're all different, and we react differently..theres no 'logic' or a given manner of reacting to wearing a helmet. It might make some people overconfident, others it might make more careful...others again would be indifferent to it, certainly after getting used to wearing one.

The "logic" is that when hitting an object with your head such as a seawall, hard packed sand, a kiteboard, or rocks with a helmet, there is a reduction in the severity of the resulting injury vs not wearing a helmet. As others have stated, and actually used as thier argument against using helmets, this does not mean that all degrees of impact will not still severely injure you or kill you, even if you do wear a helmet.

Given the above, how could a helmet possibly make you overconfident, without that overconfidence being the result of stupidity which would exist reguardless of ones "choice"?

I wear a helmet when hydrofoiling only. I feel fine without it on a waveboard or TT. I feel uncomfortable not wearing my impact vest, which very rarely happens...but that's just me.

Yes, those we discuss in these types of threads, "felt" confident enough, to launch thier kite the last time they did too. It is reasonable to assume that many of these threads would not exist if those kiters would have been wearing a helmet.

"Reality" and "feelings" are 2 very different things.

We're all different, respect that. There's no right or wrong here.

That's what they are teaching in university now. I'm old school, and can prove to anyone that:

1. Going out 5km (or further than you are capable of swimming) in the ocean with a questionable lineset is WRONG.

2. Kiting with lightning/thunder is WRONG.

3. Kiting without safety equipment which readily/easily available, and which is of no hinderance to the kiter, is also WRONG.

4. Using irrationality, faulty logic, or new school "feelings before reality" lines of thought, to justify a poor decision that is actually the result of vanity/insecurity, is WRONG.


Right and WRONG do exist reguardless of what you have been taught. An easy way to tell which one your dealing with is to look at one of these tragedies, and think about what could have made the outcome more positive.

[Havre]

Risk compensation theory.

It is extremely difficult to say if you wearing a helmet on a rocky beach would act any differently than not wearing a helmet under those same conditions, but it is not far fetched at all to think that might be the case.

One thing is the impact from a specific head injury. A type of injury I would say seems to be extremely rare when kite surfing. I have personally never seen anyone injure themselves in the head. I have seen broken ankles, cuts etc., but never a head injury. Obviously they do occur, but even on here you rarely hear about them. If you believe helmets will make people slightly more willing to take risks. That might be walking a bit faster on their way to the water etc. and that that "recklessness" leads to more accidents - then someone might fall and break their ankle "because" they were wearing that helmet. I get that this is a level of abstraction many will find absurd, but I still believe that logic is perfectly sound. For anyone interested in how our brain "tricks" us I would recommend Thinking Fast and Slow. I can't remember if there are any examples related to perceived safety and risk taking in that book, but there are many extremely good examples of how behaviour is altered by "random things" - which could be like wearing a helmet vs. not wearing one.

[Matteo V]

These two things are mutually exclusive:

1. I dont wear a helmet because it will make me over confident and I would be more likely to injure myself.

And

2. Even if I wear a helmet, I will still die, or be injured more severely because I am wearing a helmet.


Some kiters have used both excuses to justify thier decision to not wear a helmet. Maybe there is a required base line intelligence level to understand the absurdity of the above, or maybe everyone can grasp that concept on some level. But it points to there being a level of desperation in dealing with ones own insecurities that clearly define the helmet debate.

[Havre]

I'm not sure if anyone is saying that?

I think the main discussion point now was that 1. wasn't understood - as a concept. Just being aware of the possibility that wearing a helmet might change your willingness to take risk would probably reduce risk.

Personally I think wearing a helmet will only very marginally improve safety. And the uncertainty is so high that it would that I couldn't be sure that is the case. I have no problem seeing that someone might come to the opposite conclusion - that helmets are in the bigger picture reducing the likelihood of getting injured. Anyway - for me who believe there is a marginal benefit I then have to weigh that up against what for me is the inconvenience of wearing a helmet. Which is not limited to helmets of course. I have never seen someone getting injured in the head kiting, but I have seen one kiter being picked up by an ambulance for having broken her ankle (or at least I think that is what she did). I have also seen quite a few big cuts. My only "real" injury kiting was a cut on my leg from my board. Do any kiters wear shin pads to protect from cuts? Do we wear ankle support? I have never seen anyone - even those wearing helmets. So I'm guessing they don't think it is worth the inconvenience (or they might not have thought everything through yet).

[Matteo V]

..............Do we wear ankle support?..........

Broken ankle vs brain injury? Think about it.

So I'm guessing they don't think it is worth the inconvenience (or they might not have thought everything through yet).

No one, as far as I have heard, has come up with the idea that a helmet is inconvienent yet.

I've heard of the inconvenience on a waist vs seat harness and vise versa, or the restrictions caused by PFDs/impact vests, but I have never heard that a helmet has an inconvience associated with it.

[palmbeacher]

I'm not sure if anyone is saying that?

I think the main discussion point now was that 1. wasn't understood - as a concept. Just being aware of the possibility that wearing a helmet might change your willingness to take risk would probably reduce risk.

Personally I think wearing a helmet will only very marginally improve safety. And the uncertainty is so high that it would that I couldn't be sure that is the case. I have no problem seeing that someone might come to the opposite conclusion - that helmets are in the bigger picture reducing the likelihood of getting injured. Anyway - for me who believe there is a marginal benefit I then have to weigh that up against what for me is the inconvenience of wearing a helmet. Which is not limited to helmets of course. I have never seen someone getting injured in the head kiting, but I have seen one kiter being picked up by an ambulance for having broken her ankle (or at least I think that is what she did). I have also seen quite a few big cuts. My only "real" injury kiting was a cut on my leg from my board. Do any kiters wear shin pads to protect from cuts? Do we wear ankle support? I have never seen anyone - even those wearing helmets. So I'm guessing they don't think it is worth the inconvenience (or they might not have thought everything through yet).

Havre holds even dumber views on helmets than he does on climate change. This person deserves a Darwin award.