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How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

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vannibombonato
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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby vannibombonato » Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:54 pm

edt wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 pm
I would be careful about making absolute statements like "of course helmets make you safer.". There have been quite a few studies on how much wearing helmets on a bicycle reduces death rates and the result is it is zero effect. Zero. Why this is nobody knows. After all helmets help for motorcycles why not bicycles?

Now for motorcycles we know for sure they prevent fatalities. Take a guess how much they prevent. 50% or more? To my surprise is roughly one third. All these years it's been drummed into me always wear a helmet in a motorcycle and when I used to ride one I always did. However it doesn't help as much as I always thought.

We will never get a study showing how much helmets help prevent fatalities in kiteboarding and if it takes decades and millions of dollars to get such inconclusive results for bicycles and motorcycles we will never know for sure how much it helps for kiteboarding. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it does.

So be nice please and don't be too sure of yourself. I think helmets help but I don't wear one. I do wear helmets in a bunch of other activities so I'm not anti helmet. And I might start wearing one in the future for kiteboarding after all I wear one bicycling even though the statistics say it does not help at all.
This is kind of amazing. Really.

Why don't you all just take your kiteboard on your hands, raise your hands, drop your kiteboard on your head while wearing an helmet, and then do the freaking same thing without wearing one.

Do the scientific study for yourself.

Once again: i am fine with anyone telling me that he doesn't want to wear an helmet for whatever reason. Do whatever you like. But please, for the sake of human logic, don't try to suggest that it's not a scientifically proven fact that helmets improve your overall safety. Please, really.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby knotwindy » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 pm

vannibombonato wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:54 pm
edt wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 pm
I would be careful about making absolute statements like "of course helmets make you safer.". There have been quite a few studies on how much wearing helmets on a bicycle reduces death rates and the result is it is zero effect. Zero. Why this is nobody knows. After all helmets help for motorcycles why not bicycles?

Now for motorcycles we know for sure they prevent fatalities. Take a guess how much they prevent. 50% or more? To my surprise is roughly one third. All these years it's been drummed into me always wear a helmet in a motorcycle and when I used to ride one I always did. However it doesn't help as much as I always thought.

We will never get a study showing how much helmets help prevent fatalities in kiteboarding and if it takes decades and millions of dollars to get such inconclusive results for bicycles and motorcycles we will never know for sure how much it helps for kiteboarding. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it does.

So be nice please and don't be too sure of yourself. I think helmets help but I don't wear one. I do wear helmets in a bunch of other activities so I'm not anti helmet. And I might start wearing one in the future for kiteboarding after all I wear one bicycling even though the statistics say it does not help at all.
This is kind of amazing. Really.

Why don't you all just take your kiteboard on your hands, raise your hands, drop your kiteboard on your head while wearing an helmet, and then do the freaking same thing without wearing one.

Do the scientific study for yourself.

Once again: i am fine with anyone telling me that he doesn't want to wear an helmet for whatever reason. Do whatever you like. But please, for the sake of human logic, don't try to suggest that it's not a scientifically proven fact that helmets improve your overall safety. Please, really.
Is English your second or third language? You seem to have a slight comprehension issue? :jump:

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby vannibombonato » Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:55 pm

knotwindy wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 9:30 pm
vannibombonato wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:54 pm
edt wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 pm
I would be careful about making absolute statements like "of course helmets make you safer.". There have been quite a few studies on how much wearing helmets on a bicycle reduces death rates and the result is it is zero effect. Zero. Why this is nobody knows. After all helmets help for motorcycles why not bicycles?

Now for motorcycles we know for sure they prevent fatalities. Take a guess how much they prevent. 50% or more? To my surprise is roughly one third. All these years it's been drummed into me always wear a helmet in a motorcycle and when I used to ride one I always did. However it doesn't help as much as I always thought.

We will never get a study showing how much helmets help prevent fatalities in kiteboarding and if it takes decades and millions of dollars to get such inconclusive results for bicycles and motorcycles we will never know for sure how much it helps for kiteboarding. Maybe it doesn't. Maybe it does.

So be nice please and don't be too sure of yourself. I think helmets help but I don't wear one. I do wear helmets in a bunch of other activities so I'm not anti helmet. And I might start wearing one in the future for kiteboarding after all I wear one bicycling even though the statistics say it does not help at all.
This is kind of amazing. Really.

Why don't you all just take your kiteboard on your hands, raise your hands, drop your kiteboard on your head while wearing an helmet, and then do the freaking same thing without wearing one.

Do the scientific study for yourself.

Once again: i am fine with anyone telling me that he doesn't want to wear an helmet for whatever reason. Do whatever you like. But please, for the sake of human logic, don't try to suggest that it's not a scientifically proven fact that helmets improve your overall safety. Please, really.
Is English your second or third language? You seem to have a slight comprehension issue? :jump:
The problem is not my English, the problem is your lack of basic common sense, logic, and actual knowledge of physics.

In the end the question is simple: if somebody told you your head was about to hit a rock, a punch, a board, or whatever on earth that has mass, would you prefer it to happen while wearing an helmet or without? Just answer this question, it's simple. Would you prefer wearing an helmet or no? It's binary.

You know the answer, the rest is frankly embarrassing BS.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby palmbeacher » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:18 pm

Sarda wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 7:35 pm
palmbeacher wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 2:17 pm
Sarda wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 1:52 pm



The point is did you self launch upwind of the trees relying on the helmet for protection from those trees? Did the helmet affect your decision to self launch upwind of trees? Were the trees a consideration? Did you use your helmet area instinctively "for protection" to reduce risk of injury to your face/neck for example? (as arms ar usually on the bar, perhaps you can reason the implications of mitigation?)

If you had to kite naked, would your perception of risk increase, decrease or remain the same?

With or without a helmet that risk does not change and the possible outcomes are infinite.

"Shit happens" it's true, to some more than others.

Lastly, has your decision making been affected in any way when self launching upwind of trees since your unplanned event resulting in a trip to hospital or relying on the same outcome?
This is such a dumb argument. Clearly, jbrodin did not assess this risk (he will now). A helmet can help lives in situations that aren't calculated. As soon as you start kiting around other people there is a risk factor you don't control. Let's say you are kiteboarding in Cape Town and somebody makes a megaloop 200 meters upwind which you don't see coming (and you do neither). Would you rather wear a helmet when he comes at your head with his board full force?
There is no argument. Are you having an argument?
How sure are you that he will now assess the situation?
Is there another term for an "uncalculated situation"?
Situational awareness is quite possibly the largest contributing factor in any unplanned event.

Should kites in Cape Town all be wearing high viz and reflective bars on their personal gear and kites? Should there be a kiter proximity limit of 1400 meters?
The argument is the series of statements you have presented that defy logic.

Not everything comes down to situational awareness, we all make mistakes (or others do and we don’t see it coming in time). Unless of course you happen to be the one and only perfect kiteboarder in the world.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Havre » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:33 pm

I'm not sure why the "pro-helmet" users on here have to be so rude and arrogant? Almost so one would think there are some chemicals applied in those helmets making them behave this way?

Anyone that is not using a helmet today should think hard and long about that before using one. Do I want to become like vanni and palmbeacher?

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby bragnouff » Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:44 pm

edt wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 8:36 pm
I would be careful about making absolute statements like "of course helmets make you safer.". There have been quite a few studies on how much wearing helmets on a bicycle reduces death rates and the result is it is zero effect. Zero. Why this is nobody knows. After all helmets help for motorcycles why not bicycles?
From what I had read on studies like that trying to justify or dismiss bike helmet wearing laws, most serious accidents with bicycles involve an encounter with a car or other road user. While helmets do increase the personal safety of the wearer in case of accident, car drivers (statistically) unconsciously modify their behaviour and add extra safety near un-helmeted cyclists. Unconsciously they see them as more exposed, and give them a bit more clearance when overtaking them, or slow down slightly near them. Which reduces the number of serious accidents. So, looking at the big picture, with big numbers: less accidents, even if a few of those are even more serious (than they would have been if a helmet had been worn), means that in your total pool of cyclists, statistically, the death rate isn't really changing.

Of course, not all car drivers react like that around cyclists, some have such a hatred of middle aged men in lycra that they would give them less clearance, or happily bump them off the road in bouts of road rage. But overall, drivers get more cautious around what they perceive as weak and exposed. (There is some country-dependent variance here, with very different bike/road sharing cultures)

That study (and its results) wouldn't transpose to the world of kitesurfing, because majority of accidents are only the consequence of individual actions or errors, and not interaction with a third party.
Although on crowded spots where such interactions are more frequent, maybe you could come up with a study saying that using helmet/seat harness/Cabrinha(*) kite increases your safety as most other riders would leave extra clearance around perceived beginners. (* that's the local pattern, each country and spot has its own criteria)

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Matteo V » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:18 pm

bragnouff wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:44 pm
..... While helmets do increase the personal safety of the wearer in case of accident, car drivers (statistically) unconsciously modify their behaviour and add extra safety near un-helmeted cyclists. ......
Now we are getting somewhere!!!

So just do a study on injured kitesurfers and ask the rocks if they were less concerned about the kitesurfer since the kitesurfer was wearing a helmet.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Matteo V » Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:21 pm

Havre wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:33 pm
I'm not sure why the "pro-helmet" users on here have to be so rude and arrogant? Almost so one would think there are some chemicals applied in those helmets making them behave this way?

Anyone that is not using a helmet today should think hard and long about that before using one. Do I want to become like vanni and palmbeacher?
The alternative is to become like the kiters unfortunate enough to have had an accident where a helmet would have saved them, but they weren't wearing one.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby palmbeacher » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:31 am

Havre wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:33 pm
I'm not sure why the "pro-helmet" users on here have to be so rude and arrogant? Almost so one would think there are some chemicals applied in those helmets making them behave this way?

Anyone that is not using a helmet today should think hard and long about that before using one. Do I want to become like vanni and palmbeacher?
You keep wearing your MAGA hat, we’ll wear a helmet. According to your hero Donald, MAGA hats offer much better protection anyway, and apparently it helps against COVID and Climate Change too. Plus they are on sale.
Last edited by palmbeacher on Fri Jun 11, 2021 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to turn a topic about a fatality into an absurd helmet discussion

Postby Havre » Fri Jun 11, 2021 7:33 am

Matteo V wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 11:21 pm
Havre wrote:
Thu Jun 10, 2021 10:33 pm
I'm not sure why the "pro-helmet" users on here have to be so rude and arrogant? Almost so one would think there are some chemicals applied in those helmets making them behave this way?

Anyone that is not using a helmet today should think hard and long about that before using one. Do I want to become like vanni and palmbeacher?
The alternative is to become like the kiters unfortunate enough to have had an accident where a helmet would have saved them, but they weren't wearing one.
Damned if you do damned if you don't.


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