Kiteforum.com

alexeyga wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:05 pm

Bille wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:32 am

If the woman had bin using a (GPS Personal Locator Beacon) ; this Thread
probably , wouldn't exist (.)

Sure, assuming that this Personal Beacon thingy had enough charge and that it works in Argentina at all.

If you've been long enough on these forums - there are some clear patterns.

Every time there's a death-loop related fatality - people stock up on rescue knives. Even though nobody really trains at what to do when a deathloop occurs. Neither anybody trains at how to get a knife out while getting dragged through water by a deathlooping kite... yet alone - actually use that knife.

Every time there's a lost-at-sea related fatality - first world folks stock up on Personal GPS beacons and safety vests. The fact that one shouldn't have been out in offshore, cold water conditions - to begin with... well, nobody seem to question that. Assuming that the GPS gizmo had enough charge in it and it actually works in Argentina - would rescue services reacted fast enough given how cold the water is? Can anybody answer that?

Root cause of these issues lays in lack of judgement and training - not lack of purchasable gizmos.

That highlighted part , is absolutely correct ; however the Gizmo thingies
are a rather Good back-Up for when things go Bad.

You mentioned charged Battery's , (twice) ; OK-- without them
the devise won't work , just like your kite won't work, without
lines that aren't broken, (Same Analogy).

OH-Yea -- To all newbies :
Kiting without a rescue knife ; Yes, that is Really Stupid
so don't do that !!

downunder wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:04 am

...

How about that?! For sure I'm not Indigenous person but my belief is the same. There is absolutely nothing to learn when someone dies in an accident. About 40 000 years of culture somehow proves the point imo.

A guy in Las Vegas, got drunk, and drove into a family, killing
some of them , and now he's gonna spend a Lot of time in jail
(saw it on the news) ; I Did learn by His mistake, to : "Don't Drive Drunk" .

Just one of Many things, i learned, from reading about Dead People.

Guess i just, dispelled that absurd notion, of yours ! LOL


Bille

downunder wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:50 am

^
There is a misconception of safety over obvious and extreme situations. Extreme situations do no relate to obvious in my books. Lets analyse this pic from Nov 2010:

zapetljane_noge.jpg

I am using it many times as an example. It happened to a person I know only by his achievements. Which are one of the biggest on the planet.

Now, no one can learn from this example. If someone think that it can, I would love to read how. There are so many extreme situations where one only lived by the chance.

Not knowledge. Not experience. But chance. Or call it whatever. Luck if you wish. Again, lets not mix obvious examples with extremes. This was an extreme situation, which probably I would not survive. And I'm fine with it. Sh.t happens.

It is also very simplistic to provide an answer like "do not release your kite". Or "kite should be released straight away". This kind of answers are given in the light of " being general after the battle".

No one can tell this but the rider himself. And this is why we can't learn anything from the fatal situations, simply we were not there, in his/her shoes.

Of course, MrKnowsEverything will question everything and everyone in a search for an answer. Like a child for a lolly...

I thought the learning was obvious - he tangled swimming thru his lines, so the lesson is to wear a kayak PFD? They can be cheap and comfortable and double as impact vests.

p.s. He survived by holding on to his board which floats. ASK ME HOW I KNOW (I always wear a kayak PFD since)

edt wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:23 pm

The only reason airlines are safe today is that any time there is a fatality, they spends thousands of hours and millions of dollars figuring out why. If they figured can't learn nothing from an accident I would never fly.

I do agree though a lot of the time it's just speculation to make you feel better about yourself. Anytime there's an accident paragliding all the gliders swear up and down that one particular accident was 100% pilot error. The reason being it makes them feel safer for taking horrible risks every time they jump off a mountain.

Contrary to airlines, whenever there's a fatality - kiters do make a sad face, pretend like they care and then they do absolutely nothing. Well... besides stocking up on rescue knives and GPS gismos, oh and having really long threads about how it would have been nice to have some smart, self-ejecting chickenloops...

Imagine only being able to ride if you'd have passed the annual "deathloop - self-rescue" certification where you're supposed:
1)successfully release your chickenloop primary and secondary safeties and get to shore by swimming what ever the distance required
2)successfully reach for your safety knife and cut whatever necessary to get in control and then still be able to swim what ever the distance required
All while being pulled through water by - let's say - a wakeboarding winch at a set speed? And if you're incapable - then you have no business kiting. Either train and get in shape or stick to gardening.

How many lives (and beach parking) would that have saved?

As kiters we're utterly clueless the thinness of the edge we're walking and how little it takes for things to go so wrong - one only had read things about in some fatality-related thread...

alexeyga wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 8:18 pm

Contrary to airlines, whenever there's a fatality - kiters do make a sad face, pretend like they care and then they do absolutely nothing. Well... besides stocking up on rescue knives and GPS gismos, oh and having really long threads about how it would have been nice to have some smart, self-ejecting chickenloops...

Imagine only being able to ride if you'd have passed the annual "deathloop - self-rescue" certification where you're supposed:
1)successfully release your chickenloop primary and secondary safeties and get to shore by swimming what ever the distance required
2)successfully reach for your safety knife and cut whatever necessary to get in control and then still be able swim what ever the distance required
All while being pulled through water by - let's say - a wakeboarding winch at a set speed? And if you're incapable - then you have no business kiting. Either train and get in shape or stick to gardening.

How many lives (and beach parking) would that have saved?

As kiters we're utterly clueless the thinness of the edge we're walking and how little it takes for things to go so wrong - one only had read things about in some fatality-related thread...

And to think that some accuse me of fear mongering by advocating the good choice to wear a helmet......

But to kind of play "devil's advocate" and take some of my opposition's arguments - do you have any idea the forces involved in a car crash??? How about training to avoid that?

I'm just going to spell this out -

1. Definetly take every low cost precaution for safety that you can.

2. Kite safe and accept (don't make excuses for) the risks you have chosen not to mitigate.

3. Use higher cost safety precautions where warranted.

4. Be conscientious and responsible for you, other kiters, innocent bystanders, AND most especially consider the risk you put on your rescuers.

And in order to do the above, LEARN from those kiters who have gone before us.

Bille wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:43 pm

alexeyga wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 7:05 pm

Bille wrote: ↑

Sat Jul 10, 2021 11:32 am

If the woman had bin using a (GPS Personal Locator Beacon) ; this Thread
probably , wouldn't exist (.)

Sure, assuming that this Personal Beacon thingy had enough charge and that it works in Argentina at all.

If you've been long enough on these forums - there are some clear patterns.

Every time there's a death-loop related fatality - people stock up on rescue knives. Even though nobody really trains at what to do when a deathloop occurs. Neither anybody trains at how to get a knife out while getting dragged through water by a deathlooping kite... yet alone - actually use that knife.

Every time there's a lost-at-sea related fatality - first world folks stock up on Personal GPS beacons and safety vests. The fact that one shouldn't have been out in offshore, cold water conditions - to begin with... well, nobody seem to question that. Assuming that the GPS gizmo had enough charge in it and it actually works in Argentina - would rescue services reacted fast enough given how cold the water is? Can anybody answer that?

Root cause of these issues lays in lack of judgement and training - not lack of purchasable gizmos.

That highlighted part , is absolutely correct ; however the Gizmo thingies
are a rather Good back-Up for when things go Bad.

You mentioned charged Battery's , (twice) ; OK-- without them
the devise won't work , just like your kite won't work, without
lines that aren't broken, (Same Analogy).

OH-Yea -- To all newbies :
Kiting without a rescue knife ; Yes, that is Really Stupid
so don't do that !!

downunder wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:04 am

...

How about that?! For sure I'm not Indigenous person but my belief is the same. There is absolutely nothing to learn when someone dies in an accident. About 40 000 years of culture somehow proves the point imo.

A guy in Las Vegas, got drunk, and drove into a family, killing
some of them , and now he's gonna spend a Lot of time in jail
(saw it on the news) ; I Did learn by His mistake, to : "Don't Drive Drunk" .

Just one of Many things, i learned, from reading about Dead People.

Guess i just, dispelled that absurd notion, of yours ! LOL


Bille

Bille, this could go till the end of time... You stated OBVIOUS incident. Kiting fatalities are everything but obvious. You could write how you lost your legs since this is was direct result of your actions. Just like I wrote in lengths about my accidents. How about that?

Drink driving is quite "dumbed" or simplified example tho. Multitude pilots will/were be drunk/drugged when flying a plane with hundreds of passengers. Shall I provide some examples? Truckies are on drugs most of the time. You do not believe me? You guys really think the World is spinning around the US laws enforcement? Or FAA?

re gizmos, nope, the lines are integral part for kiting. The EPIRB or helmet is not. Btw, EPIRB is compulsory in AU when going out for more than a few miles on open water. However, just last week 3 people died in boating accident. No one survived. Accidents WILL happen no mater of devices.

re knife, really? I mean really? As I wrote, "That's not a knife, this is a KNIFE" By Crock Dundee. But I really like how people think that "something" will save them. Something that is not a luck.

~~~

Indigenous person WILL warn you about the obvious danger, but it will NOT discuss about deceased person. It is a simple example of culture. But I guess you guys will lecture me about the life in Australia...

Matteo V wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:14 pm

downunder wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:04 am

And please let me share this: in Aboriginal culture, it is not allowed to discuss about deceased people. It is strictly forbidden to name and show the picture of deceased person, or discuss how someone died.

How about that?! For sure I'm not Indigenous person but my belief is the same.

Downsey, you are a walking, talking, forum posting contradiction of epic proportions. How many posts did you make after your above statement???

Righto. And did I specifically discussed anything about "30 year old woman missing in Argentina"?

I'm just killing some time, you know. Have absolutely no interest in making myself as an authority on safety. You, on the other side...

So, are you ready to take the responsibility for the next fatality or you will just say, ah well, a pilot error, if followed my advice(s) everything would be just fine?

Ha ha, you are funny. What you are proposing is to minimise deaths but already deaths numbers are minimal in my books. Somehow you are just not getting this message across and accusing me of "contradiction of epic proportions". Well done mate, well done.

Somehow people see you as contradicting yourself so many times, shall I pull the citing's? Can't be bothered, sorry...

~~~

The clear difference in my safety advice is that kiting IS the most safe of any "extreme" sport. THAT sentence MIGHT bring a new kiters in. On the other side, if one wants to learn about safety this is NOT the place and it MIGHT scare a new kiter off.

Simple as that. But hey, Toby likes safety threads because they bring traction to the business. Silver underlining is that they also scare the people off.
And THAT is the contradiction just like that Toby, as the biggest promoter of safety, is not using the helmet at all. Or any extra safety.

However, you guys just do not have a guts to say it. Remember, I am ALL about the personal choice. As it should be.

Here:
Incident from yesterday in gnarly conditions. On MY local. And if anyone think that luck is not involved, think again. This are not my words, but the words of people way more skilled than me.

Is it amusing or sad as f***?

Not one person able to answer a single basic MIST question?
Nobody familiar with current universally accepted HOR?
And still able to throw words about like "risk" and "mitigate"?

Still in the dark ages?

Act like you know?

Bullshit artists!

PabloQ wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 3:10 pm

Toby wrote: ↑

Sun Jul 11, 2021 1:21 pm

From personal experience I can tell you it only needs minutes for one to drown.

Luckily I didn’t release my kite completely, if I had, I would have drowned. It’s a force that wants to suck you down into the deep when forced leave you.

It was after a 2 hours session in 18 degrees of water with a shorty…offshore wind, and I was only about 30m away from shore…it just goes so fast.

I agree, we all know in a booklet everything that we should not and what we should. But in a session of pleasure that begins to complicate. A kite that does not relaunch, a current that takes you with the wind away from the beach, cold despair and fear. It is a cocktail that matures to make a decision worse than another. And I think this ended like this.
What I am going to say is not checked. But I think that in desperation, already moving away from the coast, he chose to swim by releasing the equipment or deflating it. and maybe it was the last mistake. That is why they cannot find it. A team that deflates if it disappears. and a team without its rider with +20 winds moves much faster and leaves any logical search range.
And a person swimming in the sea with wind, strong currents and waves and cold is not only disoriented but the panic is exponential.
They are sad news and facts for everyone.

You are on route to PULSE and the "Swiss cheese" model!

edt wrote: ↑

Mon Jul 12, 2021 4:23 pm

The only reason airlines are safe today is that any time there is a fatality, they spends thousands of hours and millions of dollars figuring out why. If they figured can't learn nothing from an accident I would never fly.

Kind of partially right, but completely of context. Currently falls under "how can we do this better"

Would something like this be a solution to help save kiters in distress? http://www.surfshop.fr/surf-42/accessoi ... tml#idTab1