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At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

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edt
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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby edt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:23 pm

Words mean what people use them to mean. You can't force a definition down someone's throat.

Ok that said, when a beginner says "Backroll" they mean one thing: spinning in place. So that's what a backroll means. It's also called a rotation. To tell someone it's an actual roll you have to include the word "inverted" so an inverted backroll is what you want to say. Of course if you read scoring sheets for tricks and trick name lists you might get a different idea about what a "backroll" is but when 90% of the kiters in the world think a "backroll" is a simple rotation, well that's what it is.

Anyway I completely disagree with people that want to force meanings into words and want to force "roll" to mean you get inverted. It's not what 90% of the kiters (mostly noobs) think so the word "backroll" does in fact mean a simple rotation. If you are producing youtube videos where you want to address 90% of the kiters you want to use the exact kind of nomenclature that they are using to reduce confusion. If you are a judge scoring the GKA then you can use the word "roll" differently.

PS that's also why I have eliminated the word "freestyle" from my kiteboarding vocabulary. To a noob it means running free and wild. There's no reason to use such a confusing word, just say "wakestyle" for "freestyle" then everything is clear.

You can't fight a billion noobs. That is why "literally" literally means "figuratively".

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby Eduardo » Wed Jul 14, 2021 6:48 pm

I agree with edt. 'backroll' is the name of a move. when you do a 'backroll' you rotate 360 degrees, and a double backroll rotates 720. you can add invert, board off, grab, ... and then it modifies backroll (inverted backroll, backroll with grab...).

but outside of kiting: roll has motion associated. you roll a tire down a hill and the tire is also rotating. but if you are on a stationary bike, the tire is rotating but nor rolling.
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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby Toby » Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:22 pm

The problem is: a backroll is not a back rotation.

It's two different tricks. If both have the same meaning it's a problem, and will always be.

And an inverted backroll is different than a backroll and inverted back rotation.

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby edt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:11 pm

Toby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:22 pm
The problem is: a backroll is not a back rotation.

It's two different tricks. If both have the same meaning it's a problem, and will always be.

And an inverted backroll is different than a backroll and inverted back rotation.
English isn't that logical. You have three choices 1) use backroll as people understand it 2) use clear terms like "rotation" and "inversion" just stay away from ambiguous terms or 3) use backroll and you and a few others understand it but know that new kiters will be misunderstanding you unless you explain it every time.

A backroll is a back rotation to most kiters.

Oh wait there's option 4) Insist that what you think the word means is what it means and fight everyone who uses it wrong. People do that all the time for the word "literally". I don't have time to get upset about what people think words mean.

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby Werito » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:59 pm

A backroll is a 360 front rotation to most kiters 💁 it’s btw super confusing for everyone coming from any other boardsports :D

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby edt » Wed Jul 14, 2021 9:55 pm

If you look at how the wakeboarders rotate, their bodies spin just like a backroll if you just make the tow rope be vertical. They are spinning (not flipping) if you ignore gravity and look at it from the rope's point of view. I always get confused when to say "front side" it's definitely confusing. It's time for the trick police! Standardize those trick names! At least the grab names are standardized.

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby cglazier » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:28 am

In English when you roll is typically when you are lying down and you roll your whole body over. It is a horizontal rotation and your feet are at the same height as your head.

Many of us know that a kiteboarding backroll requires you to get your board at least as high as your head (or higher).. otherwise it's just a rotation. But as already mentioned many kiters consider any back rotation a backroll and so common usage seems to have redefined the term. Incidentally the same is true for the front roll where many kiters think any forward rotation is a front roll (it's not really unless your board goes higher than your body).

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby Kerplow » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:23 am

Backroll - unhooked/hooked purely from board pop.
Backspin - airstyle back rotation.

That is how we are naming them here :)

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby Eduardo » Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:20 pm

Toby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:22 pm
The problem is: a backroll is not a back rotation.

It's two different tricks. If both have the same meaning it's a problem, and will always be.

And an inverted backroll is different than a backroll and inverted back rotation.
??

Your head rotates 360 degrees backwards doing a backroll, 360 forwards during a front roll. Body is attached to head...

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Re: At English Natives: difference Roll vs Rotation?

Postby Toby » Thu Jul 15, 2021 7:48 pm

Eduardo wrote:
Thu Jul 15, 2021 5:20 pm
Toby wrote:
Wed Jul 14, 2021 7:22 pm
The problem is: a backroll is not a back rotation.

It's two different tricks. If both have the same meaning it's a problem, and will always be.

And an inverted backroll is different than a backroll and inverted back rotation.
??

Your head rotates 360 degrees backwards doing a backroll, 360 forwards during a front roll. Body is attached to head...
??

Only talked about back stuff here. Nothing front


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