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Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

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edt
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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby edt » Sun Jul 18, 2021 12:31 am

bridle lines are usually 3mm. 3mm lines have a one ton breaking strength. Knot those all you like! flying lines have as little as 270k breaking strength. Please do not knot them good grief.

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby artificialname » Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:16 am

Thanks everyone for the advice.

I used needle nose pliers. It was easy and quick, a few minutes. No noticeable line damage!

I’m very happy and very surprised- this knot felt harder than cement, really rock hard.

Thanks random internet strangers, you’re all the best!

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby sarc » Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:03 am

I'm surprised nobody mentioned that tapping the knot in every direction with a hammer or chewing it in your mouth is very effective to loosen it.

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby iriejohn » Sun Jul 18, 2021 7:09 am

sarc wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 4:03 am
I'm surprised nobody mentioned that tapping the knot in every direction with a hammer or chewing it in your mouth is very effective to loosen it.
The second post in this thread said hammer the knot.

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby OzBungy » Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:10 am

artificialname wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 1:16 am
....

I used needle nose pliers. It was easy and quick, a few minutes. No noticeable line damage!
...
My almost absolute never use things for knots are pliers, and pushing pins through the knot. Obviously there can be exceptions but as a general rule never. The risk of damaging the fibre is massive. The benefit is small.

The main problem is that if you only have a grip on a small part of the knot then the pliers will slip off and tear the fibres. Pushing a needle through has the same effect. The point slides between the fibres and can tear.

When undoing a knot there are three techniques you can use:

- Compression. Compress the fibres to make space in the loops of the knot. You do this by squeezing, gently tapping with a mallet or hammer, chewing, or even squeezing with pliers. The key here is gentle. Don't crush, bash or mutilate. Position the knot edgewise on a clean firm surface. Give it a bit of tap, tap, tap. You should be able to see it squash flat.

- Lubrication. Moisten the fibres so they slide on each other. Saliva, water, a little soap is fine. Arguably lubrication could come before compression because moist fibres will compress more easily.

- Push the loops. All knots are formed by a loop around the line. You push the loop gently to open it out and eventually undo the knot. Pulling the loop is generally futile if you haven't done the basic loosening to start with. It takes a bit of iteration and experimentation to identify the loop that is going to move.

I generally work each knot in a sequence. Do all the things above. Push on the loops. Identify a bit of movement then work on that.

Once you've done all the above and loosened the loops you can think about using pliers or a needle to open things up. I've never needed more than my (short) fingernails.

Removing a knot is a no-brainer. There is no such thing as a knot that cannot be undone. It's not that hard. People just think it's difficult because they haven't learned how to do it. Kite lines aren't even that thin. My record is splicing 0.8mm paraglider line.
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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby evan » Sun Jul 18, 2021 9:48 am

Just re reinforce that you definitely should remove a knot out of a flying line (unless intentional placed in leader lines, pigtails etc)

All my tests on dyneema lines show a 60-70% reduction in strength, regardless of the line thickness. So a 300kg line only has 100kg left when there is a simple overhand knot in it!
A few damaged fibres from undoing the knot will only reduce the strength by 10-20% and you really need to do messy job undoing the knot to damage it beyond that. Most of the time you can undo it without damage at all.

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby iriejohn » Sun Jul 18, 2021 11:51 am

Just take your time, all knots finally come apart without damage.

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby GregK » Mon Jul 19, 2021 4:35 am

OzBungy wrote:
Sun Jul 18, 2021 8:10 am
... pushing pins through the knot. Obviously there can be exceptions but as a general rule never. The risk of damaging the fibre is massive. The benefit is small.

The main problem is ...... The point slides between the fibres and can tear.
Agree, some skill is required to spike a knot without damaging fibers, and you need the right tool. However, done properly, fibers aren't damaged and it's far faster than loosening the knot by compression.

Like I said, it's a long-lost skill.

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Re: Risk of a knot v risk of knot removal

Postby Regis-de-giens » Tue Jul 20, 2021 9:00 am

I remove any knot i see.

My technics is just Mouth humidity , teeth and fingers. So, no tools but patience by alterning wetting-squeezing with teeth, Moving with fingers- wetting- ect....
Last week I removed a knot on the front Line of a ... 15 years old bar....(15 minutes)
3 weeks ago i removed another on a 0.8 mm diametre Line....(15 minutes)

Just need patience
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