What influences going upwind

[JakeFarley]

Off topic PullStrings, but I'd love to see "the 21m in 13 knots with lofty jump kiteloops." I have yet to try a transition downloop with my 21m Speed 5 as it takes up most of the sky and I'd probably crash it. By the way, my 21m rips upwind so that I can get upwind angles on my TT that is close to the foilers as it is a higher aspect ratio kite than the Soul.

My 2 cents worth for going upwind: High aspect kite slightly overpowered, flat water with large door board, and good technique (point navel, belly button, where you want to go upwind).

[Dimitrios]

i have seen this Mateo dude crying in some other posts as well. Unfortunately this forum topics more often than not end up in "who has it bigger" debates that make it really hard to find useful information.
Kind of disappointing but i guess it is what it is

[Matteo V]

You are joking about wanting to teach me something about kite and board handling....right ?

No, my offer is sincere. I have used that 3.0m HQ Apex, and a 7.5 before it, to teach a dozen intermediate/advanced riders and a handful of full on advanced riders. And the beginners that have 2 sessions on it, never have a problem with backstall, and get a really good feel for ideal sheeting. But the bottom line is that every single kiter I have taught backstall on this kite...... thier riding changed for the better because of it.

Given your misconceptions about foiled fins and their role in upwind, I am sure there is a bit missing from your flying skills. Now don't let that statement set your ego off! Because there is one thing that would prove it to be true, or make you the first exception to that general rule. And that is whether you agree with me on the following statement:

"A kiter learns very little from flying the good kites we've owned, but we learn the most from flying the bad kites we've owned."

Yes, the good kites do a great deal for our success in basic learning through advanced tricks. Buy the bad kites hone our kiteflying skills more so than good kites. And again, I am fairly sure you would agree with that statement given your foil kite experience.

I'd say that for 80% of those listed i built their own custom lines length with Q power lines....all tuned and flying great.

I used Q-power line for years. I love it for how you can knot it to make quick emergency pigtails with it. But I never liked it as flying lines. I have moved on to braids that are spliceable and have less tuning issues.

It was the kite type and board type plus rider ability and not the tiny wave fins that influenced going upwind

Fins do stabilize the tail... look behind you while going upwind you see clearly that the board is slipping sideways

The nose of board points where you think you are going but the truth is we all slip

Tiny wave fins are like little rudders

And back on topic.... on a quad you absolutely crab sideways as the load on the fins are not linked to the centerline of the board. But that's OK! The rail is your rudder, and the fins are your keel/centerboard. Load on the fins is essential to produce that upwind force.

On a thruster, the direction of travel is ridgedly linked to the centerline of the board. For a significant 50/50 center fin to load, you just need the tiny force incidentally produced by simply pointing the board somewhere other than where kite is pulling you.

Again, thrusters and quads give the best feedback from inputs vastly different from each other. That said, it is possible to ride a quad like a thruster, but your upwind will be severely hampered and your carving will be wobbly and slow. It is not possible to ride a thruster like a quad should be ridden for the highest performance. The thruster will just spin out and you will go nowhere.

You like my stats ?

Tell KF yours

Look, this going to sound likeal an insult, but it should be a wakeup call for you - your stats are embarrassing if you have sailed for this long and still don't understand the basic principles at work. But don't let that hurt your ego, as there are lots of people who mull through life without really grasping the reality of the world around them.

[PullStrings]

I used to be really proud of my upwind capabilities.
I'd get compliments.
A Canadian destroyed me.
My kites are older and beginner orientated.
"There's always a bigger fish"
I'd rather be stuck in kite hell only doing downwinders
The boringnessiness of a thruster.
Upwind ain't everything.

Get off this upwind topic.
You are boring....trust me.
You are stuck in hell on this thread.
You are a small fish.
Get newer kites sell the van and get more time on the water less behind keyboard.
All nationalities can destroy you upwind.
Well the day of compliments are over.
Yeah used to be really proud and now you have been taken down a notch also on this topic.

Ha ha you are pro keyboarder

[GraemeF]

Hilarious.. kitesurfers talking about upwind performance, yet nobody mentions, windshifts, tide - positive and adverse. Here's a tip, learn to sail first then learn to kitesurf it'll be an eye opener.

[Matteo V]

I used to be really proud of my upwind capabilities.
I'd get compliments.
A Canadian destroyed me.
My kites are older and beginner orientated.
"There's always a bigger fish"
I'd rather be stuck in kite hell only doing downwinders
The boringnessiness of a thruster.
Upwind ain't everything.

Get off this upwind topic.
You are boring....trust me.
You are stuck in hell on this thread.
You are a small fish.
Get newer kites sell the van and get more time on the water less behind keyboard.
All nationalities can destroy you upwind.
Well the day of compliments are over.
Yeah used to be really proud and now you have been taken down a notch also on this topic.

Ha ha you are pro keyboarder

So you've got no argument? But I appreciate your posting back completely ignoring the challenges I've made to you back when you were arguing against the physics demonstrably at work here.

And you did make a tiny improvement by going from emphatically stating 'fins produce no upwind force', to 'fins produce a small upwind force'. At least that's a step in the right direction.

And I'm here for you if you do want to discuss further how:

1. Once on plane, the center of effort of the board moves back toward the fins with less rail utilized to produce an upwind force to resist the kites downwind pull.

2. A higher (faster) plane moves the center of effort back even further, is more effecient, and allows the more efficient fins to take over for producing an upwind force to resist the kites downwind pull.

3. Thus speed is key to upwind as it increases fin force while reducing drag vs edging.

4. On thrusters you stand perpendicular to the top of the board and point the board while,

5. On quads you side load the fins by hiking out a bit for maximum efficiency and performance while not worrying too much about where the board is pointing, but rather where you are traveling.

[Matteo V]

Hilarious.. kitesurfers talking about upwind performance, yet nobody mentions, windshifts, tide - positive and adverse. Here's a tip, learn to sail first then learn to kitesurf it'll be an eye opener.

It didn't work for pulley.

[PullStrings]

Off topic PullStrings
I have yet to try a transition downloop with my 21m Speed 5 as it takes up most of the sky and I'd probably crash it.

Hello
Yes it does take a lot of room to loop and airplane wing !!
Wish there was a video .....it is lofty with a long jump distance wise

When i got the Soul 21 to try my friend had the 6m extensions on it and it felt too long
So i put 3m extensions instead giving be about 29m from control bar to kite.....21m+3m+ bridle approx 5m
That shortened the loops radius and expedited the time it took to get around

Try first some simple jumps making sure you are high enough 8ft should do it
Moderate wide grip using both hands with push/ pull method cranking the bar fully without easing up until kite has completed the loop
Was doing them on strap surfboard with transition (fronthand pull) downloop table top jumps landing on other tack full plane toeside
And practice doing a regular jump without changing direction pulling the bar from the backhand
At 13kn the kite was depowered 3/4 of the way and i was amazed how it performed well with somewhat slacked backlines
The kite since has been returned to my friend
It was a great experience doing all those sessions during the month i had it.

Suggestion is to maybe shorten your lines by 3 meters if you are fully extended....21+6m+bridle approx 5m= 32m
Practice on beach looping tightly....push/pull strongly on bar... starting at zenith in about 9 to 10 knots
Loop kite clockwise then counter-clockwise for practice
Enjoy the heel drags

[PullStrings]

Here's a tip, learn to sail first then learn to kitesurf it'll be an eye opener.

Directed at you Krap-tteo....ha ha
You did not wind competitions after competitions and championships and a gold medal in sailing like i did
Open you eyes dude !!!
I sailed and raced in all possible winds....conditions...tides .....currents....waves...storms..etc

You got nothing really to show for except your typing of words on this thread

You are frustrated and it it understandable

Cry me a river while inside your van

You peep squeak

[Matteo V]

Here's a tip, learn to sail first then learn to kitesurf it'll be an eye opener.

Directed at you Krap-tteo....ha ha
You did not wind competitions after competitions and championships and a gold medal in sailing like i did
Open you eyes dude !!!
I sailed and raced in all possible winds....conditions...tides .....currents....waves...storms..etc

You got nothing really to show for except your typing of words on this thread

You are frustrated and it it understandable

Cry me a river while inside your van

You peep squeak

It's like your an angry 2 year old! Cmon pulley, "peep squeak"? That's your argument? Try to stay on topic.