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Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

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PullStrings
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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby PullStrings » Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:13 pm

RedSky wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:48 pm
the best kites all have at least 5 struts.
And being very light does not necessarily translate in more "proper" power since you cannot "really" go "perform" in less than true 7 kn

An Ozone Edge 17 and 19 or Core XR 17 and 19 will "always beat" those tiny 13 and 15m and 17m in three struts configuration

Ha ha... they are making them super lightweight because new customers biggest "fear" is to drop the kite

Instead of mastering the art of not dropping them or judging properly the very light wind they are about to go in to see if it is safe to do

Aborting a session is also important in super light conditions and not just in dangerous high winds

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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby flaps1111 » Tue Oct 12, 2021 11:07 pm

PullStrings wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 10:13 pm
RedSky wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:48 pm
the best kites all have at least 5 struts.
And being very light does not necessarily translate in more "proper" power since you cannot "really" go "perform" in less than true 7 kn

An Ozone Edge 17 and 19 or Core XR 17 and 19 will "always beat" those tiny 13 and 15m and 17m in three struts configuration

Ha ha... they are making them super lightweight because new customers biggest "fear" is to drop the kite

Instead of mastering the art of not dropping them or judging properly the very light wind they are about to go in to see if it is safe to do

Aborting a session is also important in super light conditions and not just in dangerous high winds
Ha,ha, all those kites you mention are dinosaurs for TT, it sounds like you are talking from your sofa at home with a cigar and a glass of brandy: " Mastering the art of not dropping a kite" ...Let the others do tacks, 360's and carve at 7 knots while you wait for the wind to come up.
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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby 14ToeSide » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:05 am

From the looks of this thread you can tell it ain’t windy anywhere. 😂😂🚽🚽🚽🚽

Better make sure you have FULL FLAPS!!
E82D7489-1778-47AB-917A-B10D2F9A51D1.gif
E82D7489-1778-47AB-917A-B10D2F9A51D1.gif (425.16 KiB) Viewed 564 times
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ieism
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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby ieism » Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:25 am

For foil I don't see the advantage of an LEI, I don't read or watch all the marketing I just see what works on our local beaches in the Netherlands.
In 7 knots I can foil, and a few people with FS Souls or similar kites can foil. All LEI kites are either in the water or on the sand. Maybe they are not spending enough on exotic materials, but they are paying more than twice what a Peak4 costs already without any results.

In France I sometimes see single struts in light wind with very skilled riders that can ride in almost the same wind as me. Usually cheap Gong kites.

People are stubborn and don't think for themselfs. And marketeers are having a laugh. I paid no more than 450 for each Peak I own, so my whole quiver and foil setup is less money than an OR Aluula 15m. Not joking.

To me it does not look like the people on my beach with big lei kites are having as much fun as I'm having.
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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby cor » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:15 pm

ieism wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:25 am
People are stubborn and don't think for themselfs. And marketeers are having a laugh. I paid no more than 450 for each Peak I own, so my whole quiver and foil setup is less money than an OR Aluula 15m. Not joking.
You make it sound like Peaks are the ultimate answer to low wind foiling and everything. If you are just cruising and carving, Peaks are totally fine. Anything beyond that and they are below mediocre.

What I want is a kite that performs in 7-8 knots (or even lower, if possible) on a HF and that either let´s me switch to TT when the wind picks up or let´s me boost big on a HF. The kite should be good for jumping and provide excellent bar feedback. My Sonic 3 covers these requirements pretty well, but if I could also have the handling of a tube, I would replace my Sonic 3 with a LEI like the Juice.

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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby kitexpert » Wed Oct 13, 2021 3:38 pm

Tone wrote:
Mon Oct 11, 2021 11:22 am


Maybe it depends on air density depending on where you are. 30 knots in Egypt is NOTHING like 30 knots in January here. I've seen plenty of vids of people claiming they are kiting in 50 to 60 knots then you see them talking about the same wind speed in Denmark for the Cold Hawaii games and all of a sudden they are saying it's the strongest wind by far they have ever kited in. Tarifa is warmer than Denmark for sure.
If there is say 25 degree temperature difference it makes about 9% difference in wind strength for same wind speed. So in theory 28,7kn wind in cold Denmark equals 30kn wind in hot Eqypt.
Much more important than increased weight of cold air is the quality of wind. Warm kite spots are very possibly turbulent while cold places like CT have stable and strong wind. From my perspective Denmark is warm country but for sure there is very strong winds there. Coldest I've been kiting is -26°C

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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby kitexpert » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:29 pm

I can launch LEI kite on hard surface in 2kn or less. Launch position is kite as a wall, LE up, it stays put because there is practically no wind on the surface. (Interestingly LEI kite is easier to launch in these conditions than foil kite which lies flat on the ground and has a tendency to follow the pull on the ground and stick to any irregularities.) Too bad kite doesn't go up very far and won't stay in the air. Looping is just possible but it doesn't give any usable pull. WW is very small.

When kite starts to give some signs of wind there is usually 3-5kn wind up there. Now it is possible to take a loop start and get going. But it is a struggle to keep going and not to lose ground. Every loop you have to make drags you downwind. Travel speed is very low, 10-15kmh is typical. However it is faster than to make a walk or ski of shame - unless you drop your kite etc..
5-6kn with 17m LEI on good winter surface is not difficult to ride but is is pretty slow and going upwind is very slow or not possible. 18m foil kite (Sonic3) helps quite a lot but it is still lame and big foil kite is very slow.

6-8kn you can go easily upwind and make small transition jumps. 8-10kn is usual light wind kiting in winter and big kite is not mandatory any more.

4kn on water definitely sounds BS. I don't know how it could be possible to get up on foil. Water has so much drag and kite doesn't give much pull even if it is looped. Keeping kite in the air in 4kn is very close to impossible on water and there certainly isn't time to handle your board etc. Relaunch is 100% not possible.

6-8kn seems to be possible on foil if you have good light wind skills. 8-10kn starts to be possible on big TT board.

Kite significance is much less than many think, new materials or lighter weight doesn't help that much. Square meters (17-19m) and skill and strength to use big kites properly is the most important thing. Light wind kiting needs quite a lot strength because you have to be able to ride big kites hard and use every bit of power which is available.

Big(18-21m) high aspect foil kites are the most efficient but personally I don't see them worth it. Too expensive, too slow and too little gain compared to big LEI kite
Last edited by kitexpert on Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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rnelias
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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby rnelias » Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:56 pm

ieism wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:25 am
For foil I don't see the advantage of an LEI, I don't read or watch all the marketing I just see what works on our local beaches in the Netherlands.
In 7 knots I can foil, and a few people with FS Souls or similar kites can foil. All LEI kites are either in the water or on the sand. Maybe they are not spending enough on exotic materials, but they are paying more than twice what a Peak4 costs already without any results.

In France I sometimes see single struts in light wind with very skilled riders that can ride in almost the same wind as me. Usually cheap Gong kites.

People are stubborn and don't think for themselfs. And marketeers are having a laugh. I paid no more than 450 for each Peak I own, so my whole quiver and foil setup is less money than an OR Aluula 15m. Not joking.

To me it does not look like the people on my beach with big lei kites are having as much fun as I'm having.
I'm new on HF and have both LEI and RAM kites. In the light wind days, I usually prefer to try something on my Alpha instead of my Souls (8, 12 and 15) as I think foil kites also require some skills to keep than flying and, more importantly, producing effective pull without slacking lines. I've already tried some times and resulted in a swin back to the beach. In all case it was the same issue... as I don't know tacks and do not developed skill to loop the foil kite, when I gybe the lines slack and as the wind is marginal, I can't recover and the kite drops on water. I've already had success in relaunching it on very light wind but it's more stressfull than just using a floating kite. Moreover, It's not funny to dry a foil kite :-? thus, no! foil kites do not make miracle in sub 8k winds. It does require some skills too. Aparent wind is a trap that we learn in the very first tries when hydrofoiling bellow 10 knots.
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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby kitexpert » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:10 pm

rnelias wrote:
Wed Oct 13, 2021 4:56 pm

I'm new on HF and have both LEI and RAM kites. In the light wind days, I usually prefer to try something on my Alpha instead of my Souls (8, 12 and 15) as I think foil kites also require some skills to keep than flying and, more importantly, producing effective pull without slacking lines. I've already tried some times and resulted in a swin back to the beach. In all case it was the same issue... as I don't know tacks and do not developed skill to loop the foil kite, when I gybe the lines slack and as the wind is marginal, I can't recover and the kite drops on water. I've already had success in relaunching it on very light wind but it's more stressfull than just using a floating kite. Moreover, It's not funny to dry a foil kite :-? thus, no! foil kites do not make miracle in sub 8k winds. It does require some skills too. Aparent wind is a trap that we learn in the very first tries when hydrofoiling bellow 10 knots.
Foil kite needs speed. They are gutless and weaker than LEI's (which is single skin kite) in start and sheeting in. When you reach some speed they pull harder and more upwind.

Drying foil kite is best to do flying. I've only packed one wet when it has rained. Drying by flying is pretty fast and even fun

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Re: Ralf Groesel and Bullshit Light Wind Claims

Postby nixmatters » Wed Oct 13, 2021 5:44 pm

rnelias wrote:
Tue Oct 12, 2021 9:15 pm
Ocean Rodeo - Flite A-Series

12m: 2,3kg
14.5m: 2,5kg
17m: 2,6kg

Duotone - Juice DLab

13m: 2,73kg (0,23kg heavier than 14.5m Flite)
15m: 3,07 (0,47kg heavier than 17m Flite)

There must have something wrong or Duotone should learn with Ozone and Ocean Rodeo how to make lightweight kites :D
This makes no sense!

5sq.m of ripstop canopy weigh almost 0,3kg (the weight difference between the 12 and 17m).

Unless the Flite A 12m has some heavier reinforcements, which the 17m doesn't or the 17m has thinner LE and struts, which makes absolutely no sense.

In the article on the ULW project, published in Duotone's own magazine was stated 1,98kg for 13m. Which is obviously doable for a prototype with no reinforcements and a lighter weight canopy ripstop.

But riding in 4knots is a ridiculous claim.
They'd better made it auto-zenith and show how you can park it at 12 o'clock and go for a beer... should the wind drop to 4 knots :lol:


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