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please rate the 3 biggest (wider) wind range LEI kite today

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Archer77
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby Archer77 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:59 pm

edt wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:18 pm
I think it's mostly the rider to be honest. Go look at the king of the air guys they fly 10 meter kites in 40 knots, and it's not the kite giving them that extra top end range. Rebel, Orbit, Pivot, Torch, doesn't matter, it's how you ride that gives you top end range. I've ridden at least 100 kites I think, and a rider with excellent skills will get more range out of a 2003 Fuel than an intermediate rider using the 2021 Orbit.

The place you get all this extra range is the top end. There's nothing a pro rider can do about the low end, if there's not enough wind, he'll be the same as you or me and won't be able to go upwind. At the top, though, that's where you get the extra range.

Take those wind range guides with a grain of salt.

Havre's point is a good one. The Enduro and Edge on paper have similar wind range, but for the same size kite the Edge has much better low end, while the enduro has much better high end. Yet that's just on paper. At a big air event a good rider might take a 10m edge out in 40 knots while someone who is slightly less advanced will be overpowered with the 10m enduro in 25 knots. There's just too much variation that is caused by how the kiter rides. And what is more, the Enduro is a 3 strut kite so that 10m will start to buckle in 45 knots while the 10m edge will still hold its shape because it's a 5 strut kite. I mean the top end speed means nothing really. How high wind you want to take that kite is up to you, not the kite.
Sure Edt, the kiter make the far bigger difference, another good reason why can't realistically be made a good comparative, just maybe if someone have multiple kites at the same time can spot the differences...

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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby Archer77 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:02 pm

leeuwen wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:30 pm
If you want more range without trimming a kite get a bar with a longer throw.
My bar can go up to 120cm, problem solved.

On a more serious note the question has many aspects and forget about not using trim.
Why would you not use the trim? Its there for a reason. I'd rather use some trim to get a well behaved kite then have a kite without trim that behaves worse.
Also what you consider usable wind range can highly depend on user skill, weight, application, taste and acceptance of annoying behavior like flutter or even deforming.

To add more to the practical examples:
On a hydrofoil board with a bar with plenty bar throw I can probably make most kites work in near double the windrange of what most people would be able to do on a twintip.
Doesn't mean it would be a great experience though.
yes Leeuwen I normally try to not use the trim until it's needed to return to the beach but probably the first half can safely be used to trim the kite for the most comfort and usable performances...

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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby SMJ » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:04 pm

rnelias wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:59 pm
The best wind range, at least on paper/design, will be for the kites with larger AR and more flat profile, thus, it would be for the 5-structs LEI options. Ozone Edge, Duotone Rebel, Core XR, etc...

why on paper? Because these kites are design to behave more like actual wings than a "bag of air" and would cover better the whole wind window. The perfect/theoretical wind window is 1/4 of a sphere and kites that can produce lift even when they're sitting right at the edge of the wind window have advantage over kites that can only pull us when dive deep in the wind window (like a "bag of air")

If the question could include RAM kites, the foil racing kites should be included, of course
Yep. What rnelias said pretty much sums it up for LEIs. I would notably add the Cabrinha Switchblade to the list he mentions above.
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby Archer77 » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:16 pm

rnelias wrote:
Wed Nov 17, 2021 3:59 pm
The best wind range, at least on paper/design, will be for the kites with larger AR and more flat profile, thus, it would be for the 5-structs LEI options. Ozone Edge, Duotone Rebel, Core XR, etc...

why on paper? Because these kites are design to behave more like actual wings than a "bag of air" and would cover better the whole wind window. The perfect/theoretical wind window is 1/4 of a sphere and kites that can produce lift even when they're sitting right at the edge of the wind window have advantage over kites that can only pull us when dived deep in the wind window (like a "bag of air"). C-kites, for instance, usually have poor wind range.

If the question could include RAM kites, the foil racing kites should be included, of course
Yes, sure Melias, this is what I always thought ... I have posted this question also to know if this principle is maybe changing ...

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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby eloico » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:38 pm

I find that my Slingshot Rally 7m has a huge range but it is not high AR, but it is delta shape. It could also be due to combine it with a wide surfboard for low wind and a twintip for high winds.

I also have a Rally 5m, because for surfing waves and no jumps I prefer the smallest kite possible.

Unfortunately they are not produced anymore. Perhaps the new Slingshot Machine !?
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby Regis-de-giens » Wed Nov 17, 2021 4:51 pm

I understand your question, and if we agree that this question applies for a given rider skill (each one own skills), question makes sense in my opinion and answers from same riders having owned or tried several model can be interesting ;

Personnally I experienced that :
- genetrix hydra was incredibly wide range ; very robust as well, enormous depower thanks to its briddled trailing edge
- mono strut like Airush One or Liquid Force Solo had good low end but worse high end due to lack of structure and flapping that keeps the kite deep in the window
- Switchblade (5 struts as far as I remember) had a good range as well
- recently the Crazyfly Hyper seem to have a wide range of wind.

Overall I would feel (but opened to discussion ) that :
- in medium / high wind range, the more struts , the best depower and rigidity you can get ; so for kites > approx 20 Knots , 3 struts minimum to improve wind range
- the higher AR (like Ozone edge) the higher range you can get (because it goes further in the wind window, and if wind is not too gusty), but only for an experienced rider because mistakes in kite driving will eject you more violently ; high AR is also good for low end for the same reason ; just need more experience of the rider
- for beginners or less experienced, I would go for a limited AR , which also should give more comfort of a more instant depower (vs high aspect ratio , to be discussed)

Ok for your focus on LEI ;
side note for foilkite anyway : there is one "particular" foilkite in its design, that has extensive wind range and instant depower (rare for foilkites) : the Conceptair Wave ; the wind range is very wide, kite very stable, very safe, but poor jump abilities ; so good for beginners, dirty winds, snowkite... for example, 2 very experienced friends used the Wave 4.5m in 50 knots on a TT , still beeing in absolute safety compared to their friends of similar experience that were on LEI and had to fight against elements.
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby 1234567Simon » Wed Nov 17, 2021 7:14 pm

Core section II in 4m does the job from: 16kn on a foil to almost no limit on a surfboard.

But nahhh, real answer: any boosting kite will get you going in normal winds, but only will start to perform in high winds, and will break records in insane windspeeds.
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby bragnouff » Thu Nov 18, 2021 12:33 am

You need to also specify the size you're interested in.
Same brand, same model, on the same board, for me the 9m has a usable range of 16-25kts (9kts wide)whereas the 7m has a range of 18-32kts(14kts), and the 5m from 20-45kts(25kts). As a rule of thumb, smaller kites have a wider range than bigger ones. And XXL kites (15m+) trade a lot of high end wind range for a knot or two gain at the bottom end (where it matters!).
You can work a small kite to generate power and extend the low windrange, but depowering a large kite in the top end has clear limits (large leading edge, 15+m² of fabric, that's quite a bit of residual power once windy)
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest(wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby GregK » Thu Nov 18, 2021 1:01 am

Controllable & fun wind range of the 10m Ocean Rodeo Aluula Roam is the widest of any kite I've owned in the past 20 years.

Pairing it with a wide assortment of boards ( hydrofoil, surfboard, & TT ) really helps keep the fun factor high.
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Re: please rate the 3 biggest (wider) wind range LEI kite today

Postby fernmanus » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:45 am

I think your question is valid. Wind range is important and NO, it is not just the rider alone that makes the difference. Ask any pro if they can use ANY 10m kite in 50 knots. The answer is obviously no. I am not saying that individual ability does not make a difference. It does, but it is not the only factor.

However, if you want to narrow the choices to 3 kites, you should state what type of riding you intend to use the kite for. A wave kite with a large range is going to have different characteristics than a big air kite or a light wind kite, etc. Give us a better idea of your intended use.
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