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Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

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Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby richieski » Thu Nov 18, 2021 4:40 pm

????????? Is there really any difference ??????????

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby knotwindy » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:00 pm

Technically yes, practically for most folks no ✌️👋

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby richieski » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:13 pm

Like toothpaste? every year there is an improved formula but still the same thing that is not much better. More down to brushing technique than the paste.
Kites, new material but it's down to the kiter skills in the end.

Just would like to know if they made the same kite from d2 and quadtex would i be able to distinguish the difference? (Pepsi challenge)

I think material degradation is down to the user, not letting the flap all day on the beach etc.
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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby Havre » Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:34 pm

It would be odd if they were all exactly the same. I think brands generally are doing a poor job explaining why they use certain materials and how that is better than the alternatives, but then again most don't get kites like an engineer would evaluate a product. So I guess they have concluded it isn't worth the effort. Not sure.

It would have been really cool starting up a brand where one would be a lot more transparent about why the product is made the way it is and what kind of trade offs one have dealt with designing and producing it the way one in the end did. All design, engineering and production of these kind of products have had to evaluate a million trade offs along the way - so nothing wrong with disclosing some of the more important ones.

Generally speaking a "new" product seems to always be better. Personally having worked a lot with engineers through the years it takes time to fully understand new materials, techniques etc. - so better to jump on the train at the second or third station/generation. Brands can't accept that of course, because they need to get money back on their investment quickly, so unless people buy the first generation there might not be a second or third. Fully understandable.

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby leeuwen » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:21 pm

AFAIK the quality/durability difference is made in the coatings not in how many lines you sew through the fabric.

The extra lines won’t stop a tear/rip from happening and the weakness/stretch in the diagonal dimension keeps pretty much the same if your additional triple/quadruple are sewn in the same direction.

I certainly would not buy a kite based on it…
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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby nothing2seehere » Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:42 pm

I think this is why Airush have diagonal kevlar strips sewn in. To stop the diagonal forces and hold the shape better through the turns.

I've heard mixed reviews about it though. I remember someone saying that they saw well used kites that looked like golf balls where the fabric inbetween the kevlar had stretched out. I guess its a case of working out if that is better than a totally bagged out kite though where everything has stretched?

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby Windigo1 » Thu Nov 18, 2021 7:03 pm

nothing2seehere wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 6:42 pm
I think this is why Airush have diagonal kevlar strips sewn in. To stop the diagonal forces and hold the shape better through the turns.

I've heard mixed reviews about it though. I remember someone saying that they saw well used kites that looked like golf balls where the fabric inbetween the kevlar had stretched out. I guess its a case of working out if that is better than a totally bagged out kite though where everything has stretched?
My 12M Airush Ultra is my most used kites that's the one I use the most for foiling below 10 knots and that's what we get the most in the summer. It's got a lot mileage on it the fabric has stretch marks but no golf ball effect. I still preform great I think the load frame helps a lot with the rigidity for a single strut maybe less of an issue for a 5 strut kite.

I have several Naish Boxers and an Eleveight and a Slingshot with the quad ripstop from Teijin. You can definitively feel the difference in the fabric the fabric is stiffer and harder to bend even my 9M Boxer V1 who has a lot of use is still nice and stiff. Does is make a noticeable difference on the water not sure but in terms of durability seeing the way my Boxer has aged very well I think it makes a difference there.

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby Greenturtle » Thu Nov 18, 2021 8:01 pm

Performance wise I think single classic ripstop is better vs quadruple (without any other changes) for the simple reason: its lighter. How much lighter? A noticeable amount? I think especially on a larger size kite, or any size kite used in the bottom of its windrange, it IS noticeable to a discerning kiter.

Now double vs triple vs quad, meh, maybe double to quad there is a very slight, barely noticeable weight increase. What about canopy flap/stiffness difference though? Last time I checked , you don’t even need struts to hold the canopy tight haha!, let alone heavier fabric. Personally, Im not convinced of any performance enhancing quality of adding ripstop lines. Your mileage may vary! Just my opinion.

The whole idea behind adding more lines was durability/longevity, and maybe it does do that to a degree combined with the best coatings.

Claims of increased performance characteristics, Im pretty much like, uhhh, nope. Not unless the kite came out lighter than previous model because of OTHER changes such as lighter bladders or reduced dacron etc. But then the performance increase would be down to those OTHER changes and not the added lines of ripstop in canopy , and the kite would be even lighter with classic single.

Let me put it this way, if I had the opportunity to magically switch out the canopies on my lovely lightweight single ripstop kites to double, triple, or quad, at the expense of a little weight gain, I would NOT opt to.
I want best possible performance from lightest weight and great design. Not a slightly heavier kite of same design that *might* survive certain abuses better. I am not abusive. Dont need heavier. Want lighter.

What I want to see is LEI canopy material that is lighter than classic single teijin with the same (or more) strength and durability. Where is that?... Any brand using something that ticks those boxes? Lighter than the classic single teijin used on lei kites? But the same strength?
That would be a step in the right direction. Especially if it was no more expensive, ahem

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby alpaia » Thu Nov 18, 2021 9:53 pm

The quad tex was developped as a collaboration btw naish & teijin.

The claim from naish was that it allowed to design the kite with less dacron etc reinforcements as the canopy itself had a better load bearing & stiffness.

So overall for the same weight a more durable and precise shape according to that logic.

I tend to agree, I have 2017 pivot/slash - the year the quad tex was introduced, they kept the same dacron reinforcements as 2016 so bomb proof but a bit heavy.
Then I noticed from 2018 onwards no more dacron on the trailing edge as the quad tex resistance was time proven and allowed the designer to rely more on canopy material. I noticed that helps with low end backstall fr instance.

So I would agreed that a stronger canopy material allows kite designs to be more streamlined and evenly distributes load, minimizing dacron bands etc, does not necessarily make a kite heavier in the end if the design is optimized accounting for the canopy strength. number of ripstop yarns seems a bit more of a comercial claim.

There is no unique answer either, I am very happy with my gong single strut kite built with light canopy for light wind, and the bomb proof 7m naish slash from 2017 for heavier conditions.

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Re: Teijin D2 vs tripple vs quadtex

Postby dracop » Thu Nov 18, 2021 10:47 pm

Havre wrote:
Thu Nov 18, 2021 5:34 pm
It would be odd if they were all exactly the same. I think brands generally are doing a poor job explaining why they use certain materials and how that is better than the alternatives, but then again most don't get kites like an engineer would evaluate a product. So I guess they have concluded it isn't worth the effort. Not sure.

It would have been really cool starting up a brand where one would be a lot more transparent about why the product is made the way it is and what kind of trade offs one have dealt with designing and producing it the way one in the end did. All design, engineering and production of these kind of products have had to evaluate a million trade offs along the way - so nothing wrong with disclosing some of the more important ones.

Generally speaking a "new" product seems to always be better. Personally having worked a lot with engineers through the years it takes time to fully understand new materials, techniques etc. - so better to jump on the train at the second or third station/generation. Brands can't accept that of course, because they need to get money back on their investment quickly, so unless people buy the first generation there might not be a second or third. Fully understandable.
I do not think alot of the kite brands are doing as much advanced engineering design and materials testing as your post indicates. ALot of them are more hack and slash with designers just trying different things and trying to get some feedback. None of the brands do serious testing, Instead they get together a bunch of pro riders who all weigh 150-170lbs and test it for a couple of weeks then try to invest marketing slogans to sell it.

I have met some of the designers for the big brands in this industry and none of them has sat down and used a data/scientific approach to design.

They do NOT sit there with a bunch of riders each doing 100 jumps with a WOO comparing the % improvement of one proposed design vs the prior year's model.

They do NOT use data from a Woo/PIQ to measure how much force it takes before their design warps/jellyfishes.

They DO focus on a small amount of limited data from a few 170 lb superpros riding 2-3 sizes of the kite and then just invent from there without any real idea of what their product can and cannot do.

They are cutting and sewing fabric based around ideas and seeing what makes an improvement in the direction they are aiming for and they have a limited design time frame each model year to throw ideas at the wall and see what sticks. Its why they do not explain what each feature does and how to utilize it.

There are only a handful of attempts at advanced design/engineering such as ALuula, Click/Shift Bar, Fireball, Chicken Loop, etc in this industry. Heck, the industry does not even take full advantage of what other industries have figured - we are way behind on materials for canopies (Sailing tech), bladders (look at inflatable SUP tech!) ,etc.

In terms of the OP, I dont think single vs quadtex is a huge advatange when the kite is new. Quadtex is normally a stiffer fabric that weighs more per square meter. Over time I think it will reduce the canopy tendency to bag out. UV is the main killer of kite performance over time as it it will shred the fabric and leaving a less dense, thinner canopy which captures less wind power, make the pull less strongly. The number of RIpstop points does not really help with this altho when the fabric is weaker I suppose those points help reduce stretching tendencies. As a heavier rider doing big air in strong winds, I like the quadtex for its stiffness and willingness to resist being bagged out.

A GOOD improvement to canopy material is we could get a more UV resistant fabric. I seem to recall reading that since ALuula is a process as opposed to a native fabric, you can apply the same molecular construction process to ripstop and make that canopy material non-reactive to UV. Also recall they mentioned the process could be used for bladder film. No idea if thats all true, we will find out in the next 10 years - if they can a kite fully UV resistant, that would be amazing. Might crimp kite sales after the first batch though lol.
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