Kite quality x performance...

[rnelias]

With brands evolving their kites toward less weight and more performance, what do you think: is it worth a less robust kite to squeeze some (low end) performance or you'd rather a stronger product that would hold up well a couple of seasons?

I think brands should make explicit that some products are more robust than others but, usually, there's no differentiation and we usually found out by practice...

About the brands, what do you think about the quality of the kites from the last season?

[Havre]

Interesting question.

I don’t know enough about design to have much of a view. Does less weight mean less durability? There could be a correlation, but there doesn’t have to be. Or at least not until you have optimised everything so perfectly that anything you remove has a trade off (disregarding changing materials). Even then removing some material might have very limited effects on durability.

My kites have so far been extremely durable. I still don’t think any of the kites I have owned since 2015 have retired. Will be interesting to see now that I’m getting new ones if there is a change in how long they last.

[rnelias]

I don’t know enough about design to have much of a view. Does less weight mean less durability? There could be a correlation, but there doesn’t have to be. Or at least not until you have optimised everything so perfectly that anything you remove has a trade off (disregarding changing materials). Even then removing some material might have very limited effects on durability.

I think the answer will depend on design choices. Let me give you an example. I usually don't keep kites very long and frequently change brands and models (usually, get them slight used from someone). I've already had Boxer and Alpha for foiling. Both kites use standard materials. Basically dacron with some "secret sause" coated ripstop. Side by side, the Boxer seems a much more robust kite, made to last a bunch of seasons. Several reinforcements and details that can't be found on Alpha, however, performance-wise, Alpha seems better, starting from the low-end as the kite is lighter.

Due to inflation and currency exchange, kites here in Brazil are in insane prices and people is starting to be more concerned about equipment durability. Here, talking with some folks, we have the perception that kites from some brands are deteriorating faster than usual. Mostly those kites produced in 2020 and 2021.

[Pana]

Good question but seeing how people leave their kites cooking in the sun for the longest of time on the beach I don’t think it is a major concern. I have witnessed the advantages of light aluula kites, will not go back for my big (10/12/14m) kites. I do however take very good care of them.

[Peter_Frank]

For well designed kites, meaning not weight in "useless" places, of course lower weight kites are less durable.
Maybe new materials like Aluula and similar makes a difference, but that was most likely not the question here...

So yes, a lot lighter kites will be less durable.

But on the other hand, WHY do you want superlight kites?

If for marginal wind hydrofoiling they are perfect, and no stress on the kites whatsoever.
If for racing, they are perfect, but wont last that long, and they know they have to replace them often.

For freeriders the extreme light ones are most likely not a good idea...

For max power kiteloop riders also not a good idea...

Then you can save weight using less struts - without making the kite less durable.
This is on cost of upper end and looping without flapping, so it comes with a cost too.

Nothing new about this, lower weight in general if a sane design, new materials not included, means more fragile kites.
Period.

Because hydrofoiling has exploded in the last years, weight has become an important "sell parameter" from all brands.

Peter

[marlboroughman]

The use of new ripstop is allowing less dacron reinforcements these days and it's working.

[Havre]

At some point logically you will be pushing it too far.

But I wonder if kite design is so advanced that you can design a kite that won’t fail under testing etc., but which won’t last 8, but 2 years? Certainly an incentive not to make everlasting kites, but they got to last a “reasonable” amount of time.

It is also a huge risk for brands. If you get a 1500+ dollar kite and it just wears out quickly would you ever buy that brand again? You wouldn’t be able to tell if there are just subtle differences, but if it is significant you would. Time will tell I guess if that is what we are seeing some brands have been doing lately - based on some of the threads on here regarding certain models from certain brands.

[sarc]

At some point logically you will be pushing it too far.

But I wonder if kite design is so advanced that you can design a kite that won’t fail under testing etc., but which won’t last 8, but 2 years? Certainly an incentive not to make everlasting kites, but they got to last a “reasonable” amount of time.

It is also a huge risk for brands. If you get a 1500+ dollar kite and it just wears out quickly would you ever buy that brand again? You wouldn’t be able to tell if there are just subtle differences, but if it is significant you would. Time will tell I guess if that is what we are seeing some brands have been doing lately - based on some of the threads on here regarding certain models from certain brands.

Yes definitely this is what drove me away from Duonor... *COUGH* I mean Northton... *COUGH COUGH*. In my view reliability cannot be compromised for performance unless you are into racing/competition.

[Greenturtle]

I do not think there is much practical correlation. A heavy kite can easily have a weak link or two that kills it long before the rest of the material is worn. And likewise a light kite that doesn’t have a specific weak link will last and last.

Another important way to look at it, is does the lighter weight kite stay in the air better and stall less often etc? If so then it is less likely to crash and therefore less likely to get damaged. Along this line of thinking is another point: a lighter kite strikes the water/ground with less force than a heavier one, given the same speed at impact. In short, the lighter kite doesn’t hit as hard. Maybe its less likely to burst then, or maybe no more or less likely. Comes back to overall design.

Consider what the heavier material is meant to protect against. Is it there as a measure of kook-proofing, as in people who do not handle their kites carefully on the ground and drag them around etc? Is that something you personally need, if you know how to carefully handle a kite? Is the heavier canopy material or dacron added only because people leave kites flapping on the beach? If that is not how you treat a kite then it’s pointless to have that extra weight.

Think about what kills kites and if the heavier end of the material spectrum would have made a difference or not: kite mates with tree and thrashed around throughout branches. Big wave or series of big waves completely obliterating a kite. Unluckily catching on a sharp object on the beach. I think in many of these scenarios the kite gets trashed or majorly damaged regardless of its weight.

Lastly consider that for every single second you fly the kite during its lifespan, a lighter kite will be more enjoyable and have better performance in so many ways. That is worth something. Maybe thats worth a lot. If you like the way it flies and performs better, then even if it has a marginally shorter lifespan, it is a worthwhile tradeoff.

For what it’s worth, just in my personal experience, lighter kites have been just as durable, and more enjoyable to use. At this point I will only use the lightest lei’s, as anything else feels sluggish to me.

[sarc]

I do not think there is much practical correlation. A heavy kite can easily have a weak link or two that kills it long before the rest of the material is worn. And likewise a light kite that doesn’t have a specific weak link will last and last.

Another important way to look at it, is does the lighter weight kite stay in the air better and stall less often etc? If so then it is less likely to crash and therefore less likely to get damaged. Along this line of thinking is another point: a lighter kite strikes the water/ground with less force than a heavier one, given the same speed at impact. In short, the lighter kite doesn’t hit as hard. Maybe its less likely to burst then, or maybe no more or less likely. Comes back to overall design.

Consider what the heavier material is meant to protect against. Is it there as a measure of kook-proofing, as in people who do not handle their kites carefully on the ground and drag them around etc? Is that something you personally need, if you know how to carefully handle a kite? Is the heavier canopy material or dacron added only because people leave kites flapping on the beach? If that is not how you treat a kite then it’s pointless to have that extra weight.

Think about what kills kites and if the heavier end of the material spectrum would have made a difference or not: kite mates with tree and thrashed around throughout branches. Big wave or series of big waves completely obliterating a kite. Unluckily catching on a sharp object on the beach. I think in many of these scenarios the kite gets trashed or majorly damaged regardless of its weight.

Lastly consider that for every single second you fly the kite during its lifespan, a lighter kite will be more enjoyable and have better performance in so many ways. That is worth something. Maybe thats worth a lot. If you like the way it flies and performs better, then even if it has a marginally shorter lifespan, it is a worthwhile tradeoff.

For what it’s worth, just in my personal experience, lighter kites have been just as durable, and more enjoyable to use. At this point I will only use the lightest lei’s, as anything else feels sluggish to me.

I'm talking about kites decomposing in 18 months... canopy super-porous, leading edge can be damaged by scratching with your nails, scuff pads shedding bits where they never touched the ground... self-destruction really. Before you say 'left flapping in the wind': I take good care of my equipment and my 2011, 2014 kites from same brand still fly just fine and are all in 1 piece! Agreed it's not all brands.