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Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing?

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1234567Simon
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Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing?

Postby 1234567Simon » Sat Mar 19, 2022 6:43 pm

Dear All,
Sorry for another Toppic from me regarding Bar building....

Question
Are thinner lines really more performing for the "avereage, not racing Kite Surfer"?
I really have no Idea....


I fully Understand: thinner lines -> less drag -> faster Kite, better upwind Performance, more aparent Wind .....

So yes: for the Race Foiler: very important!


But for the avereage normal kiter???

Is the improvement in Performance noticeable?
How much weaker is the thinner Line (Not only per DaN but also because it ist thinner? Because a little damage is immediately really bad...?)

Is a thinner Line more uncomfortabel to handle on the beach (Like getting more tangles and more twists....)?


Let's assume:
Line thick: aprox 400 DaN 1,6mm
Line thinn:. Aprox: 300 DaN 1,1mm


1. Pure light Wind foiling with a large Surf Type Foil like the Moses 633...(normal Foilkite like Soul)

2. Normal foiling but with some jumps

3. Full Power Wave Riding with Surfboard

4. Full Power Twin Tip boosting.

What would be your recomendation for Back lines.... ( I would assume for Front lines Always the 400 DaN?)?


Thanks A Lot

Best regards
Simon

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jakemoore
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby jakemoore » Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:08 pm

It’s definitely a big improvement if you are riding in the lightest winds on really long lines.

I would consider a much bigger safety margin for any jumping. And would not expect much improvement in fun for powered free riding on surfboard or TT
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1234567Simon (Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:15 pm)
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1234567Simon
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby 1234567Simon » Sat Mar 19, 2022 8:17 pm

Ahhh sorry.... missed that information :

It will be be 20 Meter lines.

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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby happytrees » Sun Mar 20, 2022 5:17 am

Hello Simon :D

I run 20m lines mainly full powered surfboard and occasional twintip.
Always above at least 16knots(approx.) 12m wave kite my biggest.
Just switched from 400 dan 2mm/300 dan 1.6mm(approx.) Airush lines to 500 dan 2mm/300 dan 1.1mm(approx.) Ozone lines.

I honestly can't tell the difference riding.
The 1.1mm is definitely more tangley on the beach but it's ok.
I reckon 300 for backlines is good strength for all round use :thumb:
400 frontlines is good too
:D
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1234567Simon (Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:56 pm)
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evan
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby evan » Sun Mar 20, 2022 8:39 am

Racers are not going super thin anymore, strength and Stiffness are more important than a small gain in drag as they are riding with a lot more power nowadays as the sport is getting more professional.

You can ride 4x 300kg 1.1mm lines without issues. Biggest problem is the wear at the back line crossing when you loop the kite and the end of the lines from flopping around on the beach. If you reinforce those areas it will be more than strong enough for jumping. The old duotone fl10 lines were in the 200-250kg range new when spliced and deteriorated pretty fast and yet they were megalooping with them...

If you notice a difference depends on what you are used to. Coming from 2mm+ lines it will be an obvious improvement. Going from 1.5 to 1.1mm less so.
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nixmatters (Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:57 pm) • 1234567Simon (Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:56 pm)
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby Breze » Sun Mar 20, 2022 9:25 am

You could look for a good compromise: SK90/99 1,6mm +400 daN for the fronts and a thin 1.15mm 200-300 daN for the backlines.
When flying with the thick Slingshot lines i can definitely feel the difference compared to the mentioned diameters.
In my feelings:
When turning the kite, the slack outer steering line creates much more drag - slower turning
The untensioned thick steeringline does not cut the air as nicely - i can feel the bar is shaking a bit, not as elegant as a thin line.
Waterstarting the kite: When drifting the kite to the side, there is alot more resistence due to the thick diameter
Keeping the safety margin high , imho means using a good quality and a well manufactured frontline. Remember, the low steering force
does not need such high breaking strength at the backlines. There, nicer handling comes into the game.Thats why i wouldn`t go thinner with the backlines, although 0.8 mm would be enough for me.

The handling of a thin 1.6-1.2 SK90/99 well coated line is super good enough,if treated well - do not kink them and they will not get soft soon.

If diy: You can think about 2-4m line extensions the first few meters above the bar, where you get abrasion from looping.
Then you can change only these sections after some abrasion damage.
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1234567Simon (Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:57 pm)
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Jyoder
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby Jyoder » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:42 pm

There was a thread about this before. Some of us have experimented with light lines for foiling.

For low tension foiling, I use 130kg front lines and 90kg back lines made from Jerry Brown Line One fishing line. So far they last as long as regular lines. I’d go thinner but they become so thin to handle id be afraid of cutting my hands during any self-rescue or gusts when walking lines to self-land alone.
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1234567Simon (Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:57 pm)
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evan
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby evan » Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:50 pm

Jyoder wrote:
Sun Mar 20, 2022 12:42 pm
There was a thread about this before. Some of us have experimented with light lines for foiling.

For low tension foiling, I use 130kg front lines and 90kg back lines made from Jerry Brown Line One fishing line. So far they last as long as regular lines. I’d go thinner but they become so thin to handle id be afraid of cutting my hands during any self-rescue or gusts when walking lines to self-land alone.
Wow, no problem with elasticity?

Is it possible to measure the cross section? Curious about the thickness, as most lines have a more rectangular cross section the values of the manufacturer don't always tell the exact thickness.

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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby Windigo1 » Sun Mar 20, 2022 1:52 pm

For foiling at low speed I don't think it will make a noticeable difference. At higher speed it might make a small difference the faster you go the more air resistance becomes an issue. I have dozens of bars some with very thin lines and some with very thick ones like 2mm the thicker lines can be noisy sometimes. That noise is turbulence from increase drag the effect is there but is it enough to bring your speed down enough to be measured maybe a tiny bit. I have an old Slingshot bar with super thick lines that I used to use with my old 5M I rode that kite on the ice in gusts of 50 knots and that's when I did my personal speed record.
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1234567Simon (Mon Mar 21, 2022 5:58 pm)
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edt
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Re: Are thinner Kitelines a lot more performing??

Postby edt » Sun Mar 20, 2022 6:05 pm

this is simple to caclulate it so just figure it out

cd is 1.2 surface area of 20m lines on 1.2mm diameter is .024 m^2, and on 1.5mm diameter it's .03 m^2 and if you're traveling about 18-19 knots

thin lines about 1.5 kg drag thick lines about 1.9 kg drag

Now I have to guess at the drag of a kite that shape is too complicated to calculate so I'm guessing 4kg. could be more or less

this means total drag is maybe 4.5 kg on thick lines and 4.0 kg on thin lines so my guess is you see 10% more drag on thick lines. Definitely a difference you can notice.

the guess on total kite drag could be way off though that's something I can't look up on google
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