Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

Big air kites blank test

Forum for kitesurfers
universalflush
Medium Poster
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:14 pm
Kiting since: 2017
Gear: North Orbit 7, 9, North Reach 12
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby universalflush » Sun Jan 22, 2023 12:05 am

Bartek_ wrote:
Sat Jan 21, 2023 8:47 am

Sidenote thoughts:
1. This might be a far fetched assumption, but I think that the rule of thumb these days is pretty simple. If pros are able to double loop a kite, it is most likely confidence-building and good for single loops for "average joes". Nobody's double looping a Rebel.
2. What kites riders use in KOTA has absolutely nothing to do with the final results (like, 0% entirely). It is all about rider's consistency throughout the entire day - last two years showed it very much in particular.
1. I agree with you on this one. The only 5 Strut kites used for doubles are the Rise and the Orbit. And they are both fast and forgiving. I assume the new Nitro might join this club soon.
2. I disagree here. It is obvious that the performance of the kites used is very relevant. As KOTA rewards height and big Megaloops more than doubles, this year's podium had 2 Rebel and 1 Edge riders. All the riders on the Rebel looked extremely competitive. Both these kites have a reputation for massive boost, hangtime and big loops. I don't think a Pivot or Supermodel are currently good enough to win as they don't have the same boost. You could see that Cohan immediately won a competition after he moved from Naish to North.
That does not mean that the Rebel or the Orbit are necessarily better for the average rider than the Pivot or the Supermodel, but performance matters for Pros much more than it does for us since they are good enough to explore the limits of their kites.

User avatar
Havre
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:38 am
Kiting since: 2015
Local Beach: Oslo
Favorite Beaches: Jericoacoara (area) & Cabarete
Gear: Ozone Edge v11 13m, Ozone Edge v11 9m, Ozone Zephyr 17m, Ozone Enduro v1 12m, Ozone Enduro v1 9m, HQ Topaz 7m, Shinn Ronson Player, Mystic Majestic X Harness, Mystic Stealth Bar
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 324 times
Been thanked: 411 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby Havre » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:16 am

“Performance” measured for world class riders in a very specific competition.

I love this videos so I’m not going to be too critical of them, but their average joe isn’t really an average joe. And even if they were so much of kiting is done with 12m kites and bigger.

I have been to spots all over the world. Only place I have consistently used my 9 is Brazil. Not even in SA. Even though I was probably a bit unlucky in SA. At those spots with good wind and I would argue better than average level among the riders not many are really looping their kites aggressively. Most people that jump just “float”.

And on big kites even the best riders don’t loop. That might change with Aluula etc.

I agree with jyrki (if I remember correctly). A scoring card would be more useful for people to evaluate. If you are among the riders that loop. Maybe the Orbit isn’t the best in 12m since you probably won’t loop it anyway etc.

Personally I fear development will move more and more towards creating these F1-cars for jumping that aren’t well suited for most riders under most conditions. Suited I mean you aren’t getting the maximum joy out of them. I would rather jump 10m with a kite that doesn’t loop effortlessly than 9m with a kite that does. But of course it isn’t a disaster if I have to ride that 9m kite either.

Blackened
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 4:47 am
Kiting since: 2013
Style: Big Air, Airstyle
Gear: 2020 Rebels
23/24 Orbits
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 512 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby Blackened » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:19 pm

Havre wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:16 am
Personally I fear development will move more and more towards creating these F1-cars for jumping that aren’t well suited for most riders under most conditions. Suited I mean you aren’t getting the maximum joy out of them. I would rather jump 10m with a kite that doesn’t loop effortlessly than 9m with a kite that does. But of course it isn’t a disaster if I have to ride that 9m kite either.
I don't think they'll do that as it'll limit sales. I know freestyle was dying anyway, but most c-kites went out of production by 2018 as it's such a limited market. They realised they could produce a hybrid-C that people could also freeride and do 95% of their freestyle tricks.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I was going to say the new big air kites do 95% of what an old style big air kite does with added loopability, but it doesn't make it any easier to ride and most people just want to jump as high as possible anyway..

In summary, I don't know what I'm talking about. I hope they don't change the Edge or XR, even though I hate both of them.

User avatar
Havre
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2176
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2017 11:38 am
Kiting since: 2015
Local Beach: Oslo
Favorite Beaches: Jericoacoara (area) & Cabarete
Gear: Ozone Edge v11 13m, Ozone Edge v11 9m, Ozone Zephyr 17m, Ozone Enduro v1 12m, Ozone Enduro v1 9m, HQ Topaz 7m, Shinn Ronson Player, Mystic Majestic X Harness, Mystic Stealth Bar
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 324 times
Been thanked: 411 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby Havre » Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:42 pm

Blackened wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:19 pm
Havre wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:16 am
Personally I fear development will move more and more towards creating these F1-cars for jumping that aren’t well suited for most riders under most conditions. Suited I mean you aren’t getting the maximum joy out of them. I would rather jump 10m with a kite that doesn’t loop effortlessly than 9m with a kite that does. But of course it isn’t a disaster if I have to ride that 9m kite either.
I don't think they'll do that as it'll limit sales. I know freestyle was dying anyway, but most c-kites went out of production by 2018 as it's such a limited market. They realised they could produce a hybrid-C that people could also freeride and do 95% of their freestyle tricks.

I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I was going to say the new big air kites do 95% of what an old style big air kite does with added loopability, but it doesn't make it any easier to ride and most people just want to jump as high as possible anyway..

In summary, I don't know what I'm talking about. I hope they don't change the Edge or XR, even though I hate both of them.
Thankfully the Edge did well in KOTA. If not I fear they will start to Orbitalize those kites as well - Edge and XR.

I see much worse riders than me changing out a Switchblade for a new Orbit. Why? Purely because of the perceived value of the kite - it being better. I still think the Edge and XR got so much of a brand name it isn’t an issue short term, but especially Core are now highlighting how it is getting better at looping.

Another example of how this works at the moment is how hardly any of the big brands got a “beginner kite”. Ozone got the Catalyst which they openly market to beginners. The rest basically got “beginner friendly” kites. And you see beginners buying Rebels etc (not the end of the world of course, but still often pointless unless he/she is planning to ride a lot). So kiters are buying based on “aspirations” rather than actual skills. And brands are pushing kites that just don’t really fit those riders based on KOTA etc.

universalflush
Medium Poster
Posts: 62
Joined: Fri Jun 11, 2021 9:14 pm
Kiting since: 2017
Gear: North Orbit 7, 9, North Reach 12
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 27 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby universalflush » Mon Jan 23, 2023 12:33 am

Of course people don't want to ride a "beginner" kite if they can ride a "performance freeride" kite or "big air" kite that is also very beginner friendly.

The only case for the beginner kite is for kite schools or if they where cheaper somehow. Naish Triad is also marketed as a beginner / progression kite.

knotwindy
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2385
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 4:49 am
Local Beach: baja, gorge
Style: erratic to none
Gear: yes, I use gear
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 319 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby knotwindy » Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:27 am

Probably a lot of people underestimate how long they will be a beginner or at least how long they will be better off on a beginner type kite. So, they don’t want to outgrow the kite to soon.

Blackened
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 4:47 am
Kiting since: 2013
Style: Big Air, Airstyle
Gear: 2020 Rebels
23/24 Orbits
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 512 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby Blackened » Mon Jan 23, 2023 1:34 am

Havre wrote:
Sun Jan 22, 2023 10:42 pm
Thankfully the Edge did well in KOTA. If not I fear they will start to Orbitalize those kites as well - Edge and XR.

I see much worse riders than me changing out a Switchblade for a new Orbit. Why? Purely because of the perceived value of the kite - it being better. I still think the Edge and XR got so much of a brand name it isn’t an issue short term, but especially Core are now highlighting how it is getting better at looping.

Another example of how this works at the moment is how hardly any of the big brands got a “beginner kite”. Ozone got the Catalyst which they openly market to beginners. The rest basically got “beginner friendly” kites. And you see beginners buying Rebels etc (not the end of the world of course, but still often pointless unless he/she is planning to ride a lot). So kiters are buying based on “aspirations” rather than actual skills. And brands are pushing kites that just don’t really fit those riders based on KOTA etc.
To be fair, I think the Orbit is miles better than the SB. I see the Orbit as Goodman's reinvention of the SB. We'll see what happens with the SB now the Nitro is in production. As a couple others have said already, it’ll be interesting to see where kite development goes in the near future with brands seemingly needing to choose between double loops and big singles for their paths.

I suspect the reason for no beginner kites is a simple economic one. If the kite is the same cost to manufacture and sold at a lower price point as a “beginner” when their “high performance freeride” kite does the same thing, it doesn’t make sense to make a separate kite in such a low volume industry. Almost all brands still have price point beginner boards because they’re basically slabs of wood with graphics, so it probably doesn’t hurt to have them.

Buying on aspirations is not unique to the kite industry :P. Brands are always happy to sell their premium offerings to people who think they need them. A sporting example you’re fond of using - I bought an aerobike a couple months ago because I think I’m 30 and still average the 40kph+ speeds it’s designed to do. It’s an awesome bike, but in no universe is it the correct choice for me at my current age and fitness level. Bike shop was more than happy to sell it to me though.

LePhasme
Medium Poster
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:46 am
Kiting since: 2017
Weight: 74
Local Beach: City Beach (Perth, Au)
Favorite Beaches: Shoalwater
Augusta
Nickolson point
Style: Big air
Gear: Duotone rebel (7, 10, 12)
Cabrinha ace 135x40
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby LePhasme » Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:16 am

What would you expect from a beginner kite to make it a beginner kite ?

Blackened
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 1245
Joined: Fri May 04, 2018 4:47 am
Kiting since: 2013
Style: Big Air, Airstyle
Gear: 2020 Rebels
23/24 Orbits
Has thanked: 107 times
Been thanked: 512 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby Blackened » Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:24 am

LePhasme wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:16 am
What would you expect from a beginner kite to make it a beginner kite ?
1. Relaunch
2. Stability - e.g. won't fall out of the sky
3. Easy to fly - e.g. responsive
4. Forgiving - e.g. less power in turns for when they loop it (also see #2)
5. Good depower & windrange

Pretty much what everyone wants from any kite.

LePhasme
Medium Poster
Posts: 92
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2021 5:46 am
Kiting since: 2017
Weight: 74
Local Beach: City Beach (Perth, Au)
Favorite Beaches: Shoalwater
Augusta
Nickolson point
Style: Big air
Gear: Duotone rebel (7, 10, 12)
Cabrinha ace 135x40
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 3 times
Been thanked: 22 times

Re: Big air kites blank test

Postby LePhasme » Mon Jan 23, 2023 6:22 am

Blackened wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 5:24 am
LePhasme wrote:
Mon Jan 23, 2023 3:16 am
What would you expect from a beginner kite to make it a beginner kite ?
1. Relaunch
2. Stability - e.g. won't fall out of the sky
3. Easy to fly - e.g. responsive
4. Forgiving - e.g. less power in turns for when they loop it (also see #2)
5. Good depower & windrange

Pretty much what everyone wants from any kite.
Isn't it pretty much a wave kite ?


Return to “Kitesurfing”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Abaltasis, airsail, Blackened, bshmng, DanielorDani, decay, elrizo, FunOnTheWater, gl, Indulang, jjm, joop, Manxman, omg, SENDIT!, Vivo3d, Xtream and 417 guests