grigorib wrote: ↑
Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:03 am
Please write some more how ram airs SUCK...
Thanks for asking Grigorib! Please see below:
Inflatables are vastly superior to ram airs. Ram airs REALLY suck.
OVERVIEW OF RAM AIR PROBLEMS
LIFT TO DRAG RATIO (L/D)
PullStrings wrote: ↑
Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:28 am
grigorib wrote: ↑
Fri Mar 01, 2019 6:58 pm
- getting used to tuning the mixer
- learning how to swim back with a wet "sea anchor" (deflate your LEI and try to swim back to get the feeling)
- learning how to dry twinskin closed cell kite
- learning how to equalize bridles after drying wet kite
- learning to worry about minor sticks in the bridles before launch
- getting used to having no local repair guys to fix torn ribs and struts
- getting used to slow turning kite
- getting used to slow, barely-powered loops
- getting used to be scared in shadowed areas and lulls of ending up with wet butterfly-shaped mess (see above point on swimming back with a sea anchor)
- getting used to limited time you have for relaunch
- getting used to most kiters having no idea how to land and hold down your kite
- getting used to need of "perfect launch spots" compared to be able to launch anywhere
- getting used to quick releases ending up in significant remaining pull and dangerous and questionable situation
- forgetting about launching "when a gust comes" in a gusty, turbulent launch spots
- learning to pack ram air with lines on and not totally screw it up
- getting used to slow deflating ram air with approaching deadly thunderstorm
- learning to pull the ram air filled with water out onto the beach sand without ripping it...
" as a fun bonus add a hundred pound of sargasso weeds stuck in the bridles"
Rams have significant drag ("D") for 3 reasons:
a) Increased friction at the "boundary layer"; ie interface between air & kite, because of minute ripples in ram air kites.
b) Bridle drag.
c) Thickness. Ram lovers describe the diameter of inflatable leading edges as a liability. However, the thickness of ram airs is typically two to three times as great. Worse, much of the thickness is near the trailing edge, causing gross aerodynamic inefficiency. An inflatable trailing edge, in contrast, is thin and aerodynamically efficient.
MASS & INERTIA
Ram airs contain a huge mass of entrapped air; consequently inertia is HUGE. Large ram airs contain up to 5 kg of air in their cells vs 0.5 kg in inflatables. The huge inertia of ram air kites, sitting at the end of ~25m lines, causes a multitude of problems including poor acceleration, slow turning, difficulty kitelooping, and inferior dynamic power (the power generated with sinusoidal kite movement).
RIGIDITY, STABILITY, BRIDLE STRETCHING, & FOIL SHAPE
The semi-rigidity of inflatables improves consistency, stability, turning, handling, and aerodynamic profile. Ram airs are soft and floppy.
Birds, wasps, stunt kites, and planes are rigid. ALL high performance aircraft (eg hang-gliders vs paragliders) have rigid structures. Rigid hang gliders out-perform soft paragliders on all measures. Interestingly, the trend in paragliders is towards increased rigidity, e.g. stiff mylar reinforcements, plastic stiffeners in the leading edges and carbon fibre rods sewn into the ribs. These stiffening innovations have resulted in paragliders that are so successful in competition that old-style soft gliders are no longer competitive. Similarly, kite manufacturers are always looking for ways to make kites more internally rigid, eg by joining the struts firmly to the leading edge.
Semi rigidity enables inflatables to withstand gusty conditions better than ram airs. Ram airs deform, fold, collapse, and twist in gusty conditions.
What a disastrous advertisement for ram airs!! Check out the ram air kite collapsing and deforming from 1:14 onwards.
windmlv wrote:The foil kite went down. No problem except it now had a twist (an hour glass in my old spinnaker sailing days ).
Worked on it for a while but eventually rolled up the lines and then tried to roll up the wet, soggy kite and place it on top of my board.
Not easy when it has water in it. Swam for a while but another foiler dragged me in, thankfully. I was way too far out.
Any tricks to remove the twist? I couldn't think of a way to do it but assume there is.
Read the full admission at http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 1&p=953414
Another major weakness of the soft structure of ram airs is a lack of tactile feedback. Ram air kites are soft so the feedback is soft, sloppy, and imprecise. Rigid inflatables, in contrast, provide a wealth of nuanced feedback to the rider, e.g. kite position, speed of turn, and gradations of power delivery.
After several weeks of use, ram air bridles typically stretch and deform, further compromising aerodynamic performance: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 58&start=0
Kamikuza wrote:Have you done a mixer test and checked your SPL length? SPL = spare parts line = the bright yellow lines that go through the pulleys... they can shrink A LOT and bork up the handling…
joffaburger wrote:Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m)... I found after 6-9 months that the RAM started performing very poorly especially in gusty conditions I assume this was due to bridle stretching, I did manage to trim the bridle regularly to what I thought was intended spec however as already stated these are complicated bridles with many attachment points and I'm not sure if I did a perfect job! In the end I couldn't get the kite to feel anywhere near how it performed during the first 3 - 6 months of it's life. I think the kite and the bridles became quickly blown out...The kite was expensive and an attempt to resell the kite at half its purchase price failed...
plummet wrote:Hey bro's. I'd like to make my speed 3 less stally. Apart from resetting the mixer what else do you recommend?
Is it simply a matter of lengthening the rearlines or shortening the front?
Should I lengthen the Z line abit?
I am assuming a few things:
1) You have reset the mixer to 0
2) You have compensated for Back line shrinkage by shortening your front lines using the Black Line above the adjuster. Front and Back lines should be the same length when the Adjuster is fully open and the bar is pulled all the way down to the chicken loop. Best to tie up the end of the lines to a tree or other solid stationary object to test this.
So. If the kite is still to backstally, try lengthening C. B will adjust itself harmonically by itself. This will sacrifice a bit of stability, but will give you less backstall. Lengthing Z will just make the kite turn slower and will also reduce the Low end of the kite.
For the complete discussion on the diabolical problems associated with "resetting the mixer,” ”compensating for line shrinkage,” “adjusting the adjuster,” “adjusting lines "C", "B", & “Z,” & trying to stop ram airs from back stalling, check out: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 91#p778491
TURNING & SLED EFFECT
20140701 Flysurfer Speed 3 deluxe21m backstall
Board Carafino 2008
Wind 6-7 knots
Yeah that looks like the opposite of fun. We've all been there. Far from shore, wind dies. The difference with an inflatable is that you can wrap the lines and swim it home.
I had a Speed in 2007 and it always seemed to stall in the first power dive. Wing tips would curl in, kite would drift back into the power zone, and just as my ass was falling back in the water BAM, it would fill with air and yank. I'm sure it was partially low wind and user error, but damn. Inflatables always just felt more intuitive to me.
The tips of inflatables act as rudders, enabling faster, more controlled turns. Also, they enable a "sled effect", leading to better stability and predictability. This "sled effect" is pronounced in C-kites and is noticeably poorer in bow kites and ram airs. Check-out this ram air kite loop
The rider is slammed into the water because of 3 main reasons: 1) Slow turning speed (because of excessive inertia), 2) Lack of internal rigidity, and 3) Poor “sled effect”.
LUFF CURVE/DEPTH PROFILE
Luff curves vary extensively. Inflatables with flat luff curves sit forward in the window whereas inflatables with deeper luff curves sit further back in the window. Those from sailboarding backgrounds can appreciate the analogy: For more "bottom" end with a sail, you deepen the luff curve by releasing the outhaul. Fore more "high" end, you make the luff curve shallower by tightening the outhaul. Inflatable kites are deliberately engineered with different luff curves and this determines many performance differences, eg deeper luff curve kites are better for "wakestyle" because they sit deeper in the the wind window and generate more constant pull whereas shallower luff curve kites sit more forward in the window, jump higher, have lower bar pressure, and go upwind better.
The excessive drag and inertia of ram airs causes them to sit further back in the window compared to inflatables. Also, when ram airs move too close to the side of the window, they start collapsing and deforming. Hence, there is less scope for ram designers to modify the luff curve.
Because of the semi-rigid structure inherent to inflatables the luff curve and overall aerodynamic profile is much easier to standardise and maintain.
Ram airs can be VERY difficult to relaunch. Beginners find relaunching inflatables easy after a few sessions. Commonly, ram airs will not relaunch properly because of twisting, bridle tangles, or waterlogging. Check out these links about ram airs sinking or becoming un-relaunchable:
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 90#p608890
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 6&p=617396
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 2&p=704984
Hawaiis wrote:One swimming session will ruin your perception of the kite ... the Flysurfer ended up in the water … It was an hour long and 5 hours to sort out the spaghetti.
joriws wrote:Well I've always said Chrono is a bad copy of other foil kites. Many probably has tried it and did a conclusion that foils kites ball up in the sky and are hard/unsafe to launch, requires high line maintenance and cannot water launch.
Inflatables are safer than ram airs because:
a) Downwind launches are SCARY and can be dangerous. Eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2359529
. Because only a small bunch of slightly weird people use ram airs, there is confusion about their correct use, leading to potentially dangerous situations eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2360971
b) Because they lack rigidity, rams deform, twist, wineglass, and jellyfish in the middle of the power zone when they are downwind of obstacles or in gusty conditions. This is VERY dangerous. Ram airs can become uncontrollable in gusty conditions, endangering the rider and other beach users. E.g.
Hawaiis wrote: Peter_Frank wrote:
How does the Chrono turn ?
And how does it handle "overflying" - meaning when you ride underneath the kite, or in gusts ?
As with the foil kites I have used, they turned in a way, so with sharp turns the inside tip could fold...
Nothing crazy happened though, so just an observation and you get used to it, so can be avoided.
Regarding gusts, or when you ride towards the kite - I have seen foils (both the really old ones, and also new ones), that can "fold" and fall down - instead of drifting back steadily (as good LEI's does).
That is my only concern, as otherwise only pros
Totally agree, that is exactly what happens to my FS Speed 3 deluxe 21m.
c) Surf conditions
While it is always a gamble if a kite gets caught by a wave, at it has a fighting chance if it is an inflatable. Ram airs can be EXTREMELY difficult to relaunch in the surf (see above - "Relaunch").
BRIDLE TANGLES & FAILURES
Bridle tangles and breakages are disturbingly common with ram airs http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 5&start=30
schmoe wrote: A bridle tangle on flysurfer can mean that you do not go out... For me I had many lost hours where the wind is cranking because of the bridles. I rather inflate 5 tubes and know that the setup time is exactly 10 minutes, no more no less, than have setup time that is 70% 5 minutes and 30% an hour. And now with one pump, the setup time of a tube is less, so it is not an advantage of the foil anymore.
flaps1111 wrote:I had a FS speed2 19 mts SA and its effective range was 8 to 12 knots with a door. I sold the first day it hit the water and then the beach sand and i had to activate the 5th line, what a mess with all that bridles¡¡¡
In flight the LEIs are infinitely better than the foils. Now I have a Dyno 18 with a range 8-18 knots with 85kg and I can't be happier with this kite.
Last summer I flew alongside a FS speed3 21 mts in 8-9knts and was so slow and boring and I don't think at all it had the same high end they say when the wind picked up lets say 5-6 knots more the Fs guy had to went out to the beach he was clearly over power with a 137x42 board.
Ram air bridle tangles can be very dangerous. A lot of riders have reported how their ram airs caught seaweed in their bridles, causing their kites to wineglass and spin out of control. Breakages can be expensive (US $500 plus). eg "Flysurfer Warrior Exploding" http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4612
Ram users struggle to pre-inflate in a lot of situations eg cross-offshore conditions and downwind of promontories. I once witnessed a Flysurfer ram lover trying to launch on the lee-side of a headland in cross-offshore conditions. A friend grabbed one tip while he grabbed the other tip while they ran up and down a narrow strip of beach, trying to pre-inflate, to no avail. He packed up and went home while the inflatable riders drift launched.
Contrary to the propaganda of ram lovers, ram airs have inferior lifespans compared to inflatables. The initial cost of ram airs is ~ 2-3x that of inflatables and their relatively greater depreciation over 2-3 years means you LOSE a lot more $. Also, a major determinant of lifespan is obsolescence. In 2-3 years, today's kites will be superseded and won't be worth much. In addition, bridled ram airs lose performance quickly because of bridle stretching (see "bridle stretching" above).
REPAIRS & COMPLEXITY
Ram airs are shockingly complex. They have over 1000 parts, many of which require regular tweaking e.g. http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2374470
Ram air repairs are a LOT more expensive eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?t=4612
Trained PARACHUTE repairers are often needed for big rips. Bills >$1000 are common, eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2348790
Ram air companies sometimes refuse to honour warranties, e.g. the case above where the kite was <1 year old.
Ram airs are inferior to inflatables in competitions. NO ram riders have ever made it into the top 20 in high-quality, well-subscribed competitions e.g. https://www.gkakiteworldtour.com/rankings-2019/
.The top pro riders ALL use inflatables because of superior aerodynamics. ALL world records and titles (hang-time, speed, freestyle, waves, height) are held by inflatables.
LAND & SNOW
Inflatables are also superior on snow and land. More and more riders are recognising this:
http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 3&p=735337
http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 7&start=40
Ram airs are inferior light wind kites for the following reasons:
a) Excessive drag
(bridles, lack of internal rigidity, excessive friction at the "boundary layer", and trailing edge thickness), compromising the Lift/Drag ratio
b) VERY slow turning
d) Bridle failures and tangling
e) Wind dropouts and gear failure
ALL kiters experiences a few gear failures (eg broken lines) and COMPLETE wind dropouts every year. Inflatables can be "sailed" (self-rescued) or swum to shore. If things are REALLY bad, the inflatable structure can support your weight, eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2368004
In contrast, ALL ram airs eventually become hopelessly waterlogged, un-relaunchable, and unable to support body weight.
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 90#p608890
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 6&p=617396
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 2&p=704984
The following is an example of "diraklib's" experience with ram airs in wind dropouts:
diraklib wrote:"the SA-19 is huge and can whack you silly if you let it get down wind of you in a low wind launch. It is downright scary - be ready with the QR at all times if not up and riding!!! I can't say I agree with claims that you can ride the SA-19 in anything lower than a steady 8 knots. I made a personal choice to not ride the SA-19 any more. It went down twice in lulls and managed to bow-tie on the way down - there was no way to relaunch. I was not as lucky as others that self rescued. My kite was full of water by the time I dragged my very tired and frustrated a$$ to shore. It sounds simple, "wrap the lines around the bar, fold the kite in half, roll it up on your board and paddle in"... noooo... there are lines everywhere under water that wrap around your feet as you are trying to manipulate the kite. You just pray that a gust won't pop the kite up and slice of an appendage. The kite ... is just too scary when it goes down. My attitude now is - if my LEI won't fly, I shouldn't be on the water. Anyone interested in a slightly used SA2-19m??? Cheap???"
For the full epiphany, checkout http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 9&start=40
The following is the experience of "pmaggie" with ram airs in wind dropouts:
pmaggie wrote:I rode foils only a few times, so these are really my two cents. The problem I experieced with foils in very light wind when they suddenly fall. In my home spot, in very light wind days, sometimes the wind really goes to zero for 1 minute or so. When this happen, both foils and inflatables suddenly fall. In this cases, my inflatable, since it's far heavier than a foil, fall directly into the water with no line tangling and I just have to wait for a gust to relaunch (when possible, that means about 7 knots for my Core 17). When a foil falls with no wind, being very light, it's common that its lines roll over it and became completely tangled. At that point, it's not that easy to relaunch.
The other big problem with foils in very light wind is when the wind completely stops. With an inflatable, you just get your kite and swim attached to your little floating boat. With a foil, you have 20 sqm of tissue to carry home with you!
For the full story, checkout: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2376332
Here is the experience of "FredBGG" with a line failure:
FredBGG wrote:The other day I had a front line fail.
Wind was slightly off shore...
I really needed a tow to the beach.
I had the kite safely on the 5th line folded in half (flysurfer Foil)
I waved down two kiters.... both expert judging by their riding.
Both refused to help.
One even yelled if you can't relaunch it's your problem.
Anyway after a difficult ordeal in the surf and current I got back to the beach.
I had to rest a bit but my board was still out there.
For the full admission http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2362065
The problem here isn't with the other kiters, it's with Fred's choice of kite. If Fred had an inflatable, he would have been able to "self-rescue" by grabbing the tips and "sailing" to shore. The other kiters refusing to help is understandable: Fred opted for less safe equipment. It's his problem and he shouldn't impose on others to make up for his equipment deficiencies. Also, towing a ram air to shore is like towing a sleeping bag full of water - difficult and dangerous.
f) 8 knot limit
Despite the lies of ram lovers, you won't really get going on any kite (ram air OR inflatable) unless the wind is over ~ 7-8 knots and won't really have fun until ~ 10 knots.
Both kites - the 21m Flysurfer and the 17m Zephyr - are FAILING TO STAY UPWIND.
Ram lovers have been shown to lie repeatedly about their light wind capabilities:
eg http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php? ... 27#p539227
gmb13 wrote:My Speed 3 19 DL gives up under 5 knots... - Gunnar Biniasch
Wind moving at <7 knots (13km/h) simply cannot deliver enough power for ANY kite to perform; certainly NO KITE WILL PERFORM AT 5 KNOTS. Gunnar's exaggerations can be found at http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2361421
g ) BIG INFLATABLES are better than BIG FLYSURFERS in Light Winds[/color]
See this thread about the poor light wind properties of Flysurfer http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2349064
, in particular:
i) Peter Frank's opinion
gobigkahuna wrote:I read all the same reports and reviews that everyone else here probably read and spent the "big bucks" for the S2-19, but to be honest was extremely disappointed and sold it…Flysurfers just plain suck in gusty, light winds…I had a hard time keeping the thing in the air much less getting enough power from it to go on the water… A couple months later I got an 07 Waroo 20m…and it is the best 20m I've ever flown. I am able to fly it in winds I would never have thought possible.
Peter Frank, a well respected commentator on the sport, says 8-9 knots is the bare minimum http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2365531
Night_Thrasher wrote:What is the lowest wind condition I can go kitesurfing and what is the best kite brand and size for it?
It depends a lot on your weight, how low you can go.
If you are "average" around 80kg, the lowest you can go will be around 5m/s (10knots) with the right kite and board.
If you are REALLY experienced, you will be able to push the lower limit down to about 8-9 knots, but this is the absolute lowest wind possible to kitesurf in (holding ground/going upwind) with average weight IMO.
And talking about EXACTLY how "low you can go" is just pure bullshit - as you can not measure the windspeed at the kite, which is the only true value for this.
Sometimes you have a huge windgradient, sometimes a small one, and air temperature and height also influences.
But around 10knots is the limit for most kitesurfers, and just a small tad lower for the "extreme" ones
When you talk about windspeed - where is it measured then ?
At headheight, maybe around 2 meter above the water ?
Or at 10 meter height, which is our (Denmark) meterological standard height for wind measurements ?
There is a difference of typical 2 knots, so VERY important.
My point is - always take those claiming "this and that" as their minimum wind speed with a grain of salt
In light winds on lumpy seas with big surf i'm finding the speed to be very annoying. The chop and swell slows you down so you cant get speed to boost. the slow turning and completely non existant down wind ability is a real pain in the waves. also when you do ride a wave upwind the extra speed powers the kite up and tears you off the wave face.... grrrrr.
I've come to the conclusion that it really is a flat water or land kite.
Flysurfer's Ralf Groesl AGREED with ALL of the points I’ve made over the years, bravely withstanding the abuse and hysteria of ram lovers: http://www.kiteforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=2400039
Summarising Ralf’s critique of ram airs:
- Ram airs have INFERIOR handling
- Ram airs have INFERIOR jumping and higher drag
- Ram airs have an INFERIOR "heavy" feel because of entrapped air
- Ram airs have INFERIOR relaunch: “Taking everything into consideration, a Soft-kite is NOT easier to restart than a Tube-kite, while a Tube-kite has the advantage of being a permanent floating device”.
- Ram airs are MORE EXPENSIVE
”It’s the Tube-kite that stands victorious."
" From a designers point of view, (INFLATABLES) shine in every aspect and their simplicity in design is the key to controlling their complexity. Tube-kites rule most of the sport related requirements..."
GEEKS, WEIRDOES, & SOCIAL MISFITS
Inflatable riders tend to hang out and help each other; there's a high level of collegiality. Ram lovers tend to be regarded as outsiders and slightly weird. This is because ram lovers are a tiny minority on the beach, inflatable riders are unfamiliar with the special requirements of ram airs, and partly because, as a group, ram lovers DO tend to be weirdoes. Middle-aged slightly obese men with grey pony tails tend to prefer ram airs. One of the simple practical problems with being part of a weird minority is that it can be difficult to find people to help launch and land your kite, eg http://www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Kite ... -on-beach/
joffaburger wrote:Moved to a foil kite 5 years ago (flysurfer pulse 10m). As far as RAM air kiters being weirdos I can honestly say that you find out who your real friends are on a kite beach when you switch to a RAM air kite! Many of the people who used to help me launch suddenly lost their hands as I flew LEI kites for 3 years before trying a RAM air I would have to say the guys on beach changed their attitude towards me rather than I became weirdo overnight!
foilholio wrote: I just dont understand how kiters cant grasp the concept of landing a foil kite... For some reason the center of the kite is their favorite place, especially after explaining it. Add in trying the turn it inside out after grabbing it. Or trying to land it from down wind, this happens way too often. But a random non kiter on the beach can understand and land it every time...?????
It is unreasonable to expect inflatable kiters to have to learn the idiosyncrasies of inferior and dangerous ram equipment. “Foilholio” states that inflatable riders try to help him launch/land from the "centre" of his kite.... HOW DANGEROUS IS THIS!!!??? The risk of getting tangled in ram air bridles and having to learn the idiosyncrasies of ram air kites is unacceptable. It’s interesting to speculate on the causes of weirdness in ram lovers… maybe their weirdness is self selecting, i.e. There must be some sort of psychological problem in the first place to deliberately choose inferior kites in the face of overwhelming evidence of the superiority of inflatables.
And the lies.
Of ram airs ignore.