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Cabrinha 03

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Toby
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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby Toby » Mon Jan 23, 2023 8:43 pm

3D printer can make it happen?

I had a Microloop made to fit the new QR's. Costs a bit, but then you are fine for future.

pelealexandru
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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby pelealexandru » Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:09 pm

I'm guessing Pat Goodman opened this Orbit project, File > Save as, typed Orbit and bam, but we'll see :naughty: :lol:

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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby lifeinthehood » Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:32 pm

pelealexandru wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:09 pm
I'm guessing Pat Goodman opened this Orbit project, File > Save as, typed Orbit and bam, but we'll see :naughty: :lol:
This raises some questions I've always had. Does anyone know how intellectual property works in the world of watersports where designers often switch companies? When Pat Goodman designs something like say the Orbit, the name obviously belongs to North. What about the design? As far as I know, it's not patented. So then when Pat goes back to Cabrinha, can he use the exact same design? Or does he have to modify it to be sufficiently different from a previous design at a different company? The new MotoX sounds a LOT like the Reach - light bar pressure, loopable 12 m, quick turning, does everything well, etc.

Come to think of it, what's to stop one company from just flat out copying the design of another company? I don't imagine it's that difficult for someone who wants to start a company to simply digitize a design and essentially create a carbon copy. Kite design all seems to have been converging in the last 10 years anyways.

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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby decay » Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:47 pm

lifeinthehood wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:32 pm
pelealexandru wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:09 pm
I'm guessing Pat Goodman opened this Orbit project, File > Save as, typed Orbit and bam, but we'll see :naughty: :lol:
Come to think of it, what's to stop one company from just flat out copying the design of another company? I don't imagine it's that difficult for someone who wants to start a company to simply digitize a design and essentially create a carbon copy. Kite design all seems to have been converging in the last 10 years anyways.
So what you are thinking of is:

Unstitch/unglue all the panels
Scan/digitize
Take those files and start a kite company

Easy to talk about, almost impossible to implement to any level of usability. The errors involved would blow out very very quickly to way beyond what would make the kite fly nothing like the original.

The biggest issue is however, without the 'source code' (SurfPlan .SLE file or KaroroCAD .KITE file) the wing you get from the process is an orphan - even if you did manage to get it to fly it is one size only, and there is no easy way to change or improve it. Changes, improvements, tuning - that is what keeps your brand going and up to speed year after year.

Scaling sizes alone would be a nightmare - much beyond 1 to 2m in canopy size and whole bunch of stuff in non-linear in nature - take the 9m scan you actual got to fly from the process above and scale to 12m - it is now a complete basket case (let alone the headache of hours of work to manually adjust seam allowances on EVERY SINGLE PANEL...)

For all the work involved and the limited chance of success its actually easy to design new kites from scratch or pay one of the contract designers out there for their services.

Cheers

DK

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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby lifeinthehood » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:12 pm

decay wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 5:47 pm
lifeinthehood wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 3:32 pm
pelealexandru wrote:
Thu Jan 26, 2023 2:09 pm
I'm guessing Pat Goodman opened this Orbit project, File > Save as, typed Orbit and bam, but we'll see :naughty: :lol:
Come to think of it, what's to stop one company from just flat out copying the design of another company? I don't imagine it's that difficult for someone who wants to start a company to simply digitize a design and essentially create a carbon copy. Kite design all seems to have been converging in the last 10 years anyways.
So what you are thinking of is:

Unstitch/unglue all the panels
Scan/digitize
Take those files and start a kite company

Easy to talk about, almost impossible to implement to any level of usability. The errors involved would blow out very very quickly to way beyond what would make the kite fly nothing like the original.

The biggest issue is however, without the 'source code' (SurfPlan .SLE file or KaroroCAD .KITE file) the wing you get from the process is an orphan - even if you did manage to get it to fly it is one size only, and there is no easy way to change or improve it. Changes, improvements, tuning - that is what keeps your brand going and up to speed year after year.

Scaling sizes alone would be a nightmare - much beyond 1 to 2m in canopy size and whole bunch of stuff in non-linear in nature - take the 9m scan you actual got to fly from the process above and scale to 12m - it is now a complete basket case (let alone the headache of hours of work to manually adjust seam allowances on EVERY SINGLE PANEL...)

For all the work involved and the limited chance of success its actually easy to design new kites from scratch or pay one of the contract designers out there for their services.

Cheers

DK
The main crux of my post wasn't really about someone starting from scratch. I'm not at all dismissing the difficulty of the endeavor of starting from scratch. What I'm actually interested/curious about is, how kite industry operates when there doesn't seem to be a lot of patent protection on kite design. How much do kite designers borrow from one another? If one already has experience working with these materials, then I assume if one were given a kite and could take ALL of the measurements of a kite, you could simply build one based off one's experience of how a kite is put together. I would imagine that one could get close enough to at least have a starting point to fine tune it.

But as to the original point, I'm also curious who owns the design? So Pat goes back to Cabrinha. Obviously he knows how he designed the Orbit and Reach if he doesn't already have actual CAD files. Is he legally required to change those designs before Cabrinha can use them? Or does he own the right to do whatever he wants with those designs?

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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby decay » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:27 pm

So by far the best answer I have for that is:



Followed by the letters R and D - with the R being the much more important than the D.

If you are going to design or create ANYTHING - being very familiar with the current state of the art is vital.

Every good designer I know buys and rides other brands equipment - it is buy far the best way to move your own stuff forward.

Copying kites is downright impossible - however being inspired by and building on the work of others is the road to mastery.

Cheers

DK

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Toby
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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby Toby » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:30 pm

but I think back then (roughly 20 years ago...) sizes were scaled? I remember that a brand had a kite in the main size they used perfectly, and the rest didn't fly as well, because they scaled it.

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Toby
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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby Toby » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:32 pm

Most people in the industry know each other. And yes, they fly other gear as well to see differences.

And it is always quiet an exchange on fairs as well between the industry.

But the question is valid: who owns the designs? Maybe also depending on the contract?

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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby knotwindy » Thu Jan 26, 2023 6:51 pm

Well, it’s not like Pete or whoever is going to forget everything he or she has learned in the last 25 years of design. So, I’m guessing there is a minimum you need to change to call it something new which would be easy for someone who has been designing for years. They do a small version of it every year even when they stay with the same company. New & improved has been around for a long time.

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Re: Cabrinha 03

Postby Mikkelza » Thu Jan 26, 2023 8:32 pm

Interesting to read your thoughts about kite designs, intellectual property and copying.

I guess it also depends from case to case. What was in the contract.

One thing I am thinking about is when north because duotone and the current north was established. Duotone owned the right to kitedesign and model names. But not the brand name north. So in that situation somebody (who stayed with the company that became duotone) has the right to the kitedesign (and model names). Those who moved on, and established the new/current north had to design new kite models them self. (And hired the aforementioned Pat Goodman to do this..)


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