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Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

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downunder
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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby downunder » Sun Feb 11, 2024 12:20 pm

Mynameiszombie wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 3:17 am
downunder wrote:
Sat Feb 10, 2024 3:57 pm

Mast?

Man, mast lasts forever.
This is the carbon mast of my Spotz Tuna 3. It is the end that connects to the fuselage. There is no way to fix it, but a high chance of losing the entire foil. I had to bond it with epoxy into the fuselage, resulting in an unimast-foil setup that is completely unsuitable for travel.
Sure.

That is the tuttle connection.

Mast is still ok ;)

The OP asked for a mast. Not a tuttle.

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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby rnelias » Sun Feb 11, 2024 1:11 pm

I have both here but most of the times I'm riding a 95cm F-One aluminum mast. Weird, isn't it? It must have at least 500 sessions already. I've opted to use more the aluminum mast, instead of carbon, mostly because I ride in an urban bay area with plenty of floating solid material on water. High speed crashes are relatively frequent and aluminum survives better to these impacts than carbon. Aluminum usually absorbs the collisions crumpling while carbon would crack. This mast already have 2 deep dents due to collisions against wood. Moreover, I'm a freerider and can't see benefit in using carbon masts for performance. The only reason would be due to weight but my foil board set up is already fairly light :thumb:

Regarding the carbon mast, I have a M101 Sab and a 90cm Okes (a Brazilian brand) that I've been using to learn wing. It already has some scratches. The M101 is collecting dust and will probably resell it soon.

Btw, F-One aluminum mast uses helicoils and you can leave it assembled with no issues with corrosion. I practically never disassemble the mast's head.

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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby kitexpert » Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:01 pm

Spotz Tuna3 seems to be a bad design, that barrel nut is too close to end and it seems there is not enough fiber there either. It shouldn't crack like that :roll:

Masts itself are built strong because otherwise carbon structure wouldn't be stiff enough.

However some carbon wings are not very well designed or built. I've seen some in which there is only foam core without decent reinforcement at the middle, where screw holes are. When you tighten screws they start to crush it and finally whole wing drops off.

Also some foil boards are bad, no stringers, not enough reinforcements for the plate. So there is only styrofoam inside and thin laminations on top... That kind of board starts to bend and break in front of the plate and bottom and top delaminate. Wing foil boards are similar but they are so thick they hardly can break. However they are quite fragile for dents because laminations are so thin for light weight.

These examples are from big hf brands. I'm not mentioning names but shame on them.

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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby grigorib » Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 pm

Define carbon please.
Below is a pic of 2013 MHL Lift “carbon” foil cut.

Outer layer of glass you see is reinforcement after fuselage made of glass fiber and thin wrap of carbon on the outside cracked. It did partially because guys didn’t lay glass fiber around mast mount opening but just machined through the fibers to make the hole and destroyed structural strength of the glass fiber.

I also saw aluminum masts bent, titanium bolts snapped, M6 steel bolts snapped. Carbon fuselage completely broke off between the wing and fuselage, quarter (upper half) of a wing split and broken off, wings delaminate and split. I saw people who couldn’t take aluminum set apart because of corrosion, saw people partially extracting rear bolt of mast insert like a tooth, saw mast plate cracked, saw mast plate broken off, saw board tracks ripped out and foil gone, saw people needing a mallet to be able to get a carbon foil apart. I saw a guy calling manufacturer asking if the carbon foil he bought is actually carbon and not aluminum because it’s so heavy.

Geometry, performance, weight and looks are not everything. Manufacturer’s legacy and design maturity, their support level are also important.

That being said I’m a happy carbon foil rider since 2015
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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby Matty V » Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:01 am

kitexpert wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:01 pm
Spotz Tuna3 seems to be a bad design, that barrel nut is too close to end and it seems there is not enough fiber there either. It shouldn't crack like that :roll:

Masts itself are built strong because otherwise carbon structure wouldn't be stiff enough.

However some carbon wings are not very well designed or built. I've seen some in which there is only foam core without decent reinforcement at the middle, where screw holes are. When you tighten screws they start to crush it and finally whole wing drops off.

Also some foil boards are bad, no stringers, not enough reinforcements for the plate. So there is only styrofoam inside and thin laminations on top... That kind of board starts to bend and break in front of the plate and bottom and top delaminate. Wing foil boards are similar but they are so thick they hardly can break. However they are quite fragile for dents because laminations are so thin for light weight.

These examples are from big hf brands. I'm not mentioning names but shame on them.
Spotz tuna 3 is old as f*** so not enormously relevant

Plus they closed in 2016/17

Spotz were seriously good foils though and introduced massive accessible performance when a ML bullet 3 was still on the drawing board

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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby kitexpert » Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:16 pm

Matty V wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:01 am


Spotz tuna 3 is old as f*** so not enormously relevant

Plus they closed in 2016/17

Spotz were seriously good foils though and introduced massive accessible performance when a ML bullet 3 was still on the drawing board
Ok, but anyway that's not how it is supposed to do. Barrel nuts are strong and simple but you should put them more like two inches from the end of mast than one centimeter. Of course then you need long screws but it won't fail

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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby bragnouff » Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:26 pm

grigorib wrote:
Sun Feb 11, 2024 8:33 pm
saw people needing a mallet to be able to get a carbon foil apart
I'm using a mallet everyday on my GoFoil setups, and there's nothing wrong with that! It goes hand in hand with tapered fuselage, which is a mechanically sound way to attach things together with minimal play. And then there's just one screw to keep it in place once tight. The wings are stronger than the mallet!

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Re: Which is the durability of a carbon foil?

Postby bragnouff » Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:36 pm

kitexpert wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 1:16 pm
Matty V wrote:
Mon Feb 12, 2024 12:01 am


Spotz tuna 3 is old as f*** so not enormously relevant

Plus they closed in 2016/17

Spotz were seriously good foils though and introduced massive accessible performance when a ML bullet 3 was still on the drawing board
Ok, but anyway that's not how it is supposed to do. Barrel nuts are strong and simple but you should put them more like two inches from the end of mast than one centimeter. Of course then you need long screws but it won't fail
If it's about the mast to fuselage connection, as stated by the original poster, then you might not have the luxury to have two inches available.
I also think the barrel nuts would be holding into the carbon mast itselt, and what has cracked on that pic is essentially just the "filler" added over the mast to match the female part on the other side. This could be recast, (whether this is economical or not to do so is a different question). Carbon stuff can almost always be repaired, much more so than aluminium.


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