Anono,
you're supposed to say, yes, projected is close to equal for one skin, however the foil is an envelope, a foil, so actually twice the material, 32m2 compared to the 22m2 of the 16.4 projected AB,
and tell me, how do i shave mm off my fins?
Clue #1 It involves LEIs and Foils,
Clue #2 It's fun to do.
KG
Why none of the top 50 use Ram Airs?
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KiteGlider
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Nice to see some honesty from one of the foilers. KG owns up to the fact that foils require more material to construct than what is apparently the projected area.
Aerodynamics is so complicated. And this discussion about weights. Did you know that competition sailplanes actually carry extra weight as water ballast to increase their performance? That is so weird! Way over my head, so I won't pretend to be an expert on aerodynamics.
KG's example makes me realize that you rammies are reallly cool people and now I'm thinking that I want to be cool also, so I will start looking for a foil now.
I appologize to everyone for being such an a-hole. I had a bad day, the wife slapped me around, dog pissed on my leg, it's just been really dreadful.
BTW Kiteglider, how do you shave mm off your fins? Such a mysterious riddle, please tell me?
Aerodynamics is so complicated. And this discussion about weights. Did you know that competition sailplanes actually carry extra weight as water ballast to increase their performance? That is so weird! Way over my head, so I won't pretend to be an expert on aerodynamics.
KG's example makes me realize that you rammies are reallly cool people and now I'm thinking that I want to be cool also, so I will start looking for a foil now.
I appologize to everyone for being such an a-hole. I had a bad day, the wife slapped me around, dog pissed on my leg, it's just been really dreadful.
BTW Kiteglider, how do you shave mm off your fins? Such a mysterious riddle, please tell me?
Anon, I wish to counterpart some of your opinions on foils vs LEI
**Jumping
- A bit more skill is required but you can boost just as high. With the Psycho for example you also get longer "float"
** turning
- Compare kites with the same power: 16.5 LEI vs Psycho 12.5m/Guerilla 13 and you will see that they turn with the same speed
** upwind ability
- Psycho goes better then any LEI imho, try one you will see that this is true.
** stability
- This is indeed a hard one because there is no rigid frame, auto-stabalizeing profile helps here.
** stability in gusts
- See above, gust absorber on a Psycho helps here
** hang-time
- See above and first post.
** efficiency are ALL superior on inflatables.
- Foils have better efficiency only the bridles influence this in a bit of negative way.
P.S. LEI companies have bigger bucks, this is what pro's attracts.
Greetings Frank (Psycho owner)
**Jumping
- A bit more skill is required but you can boost just as high. With the Psycho for example you also get longer "float"
** turning
- Compare kites with the same power: 16.5 LEI vs Psycho 12.5m/Guerilla 13 and you will see that they turn with the same speed
** upwind ability
- Psycho goes better then any LEI imho, try one you will see that this is true.
** stability
- This is indeed a hard one because there is no rigid frame, auto-stabalizeing profile helps here.
** stability in gusts
- See above, gust absorber on a Psycho helps here
** hang-time
- See above and first post.
** efficiency are ALL superior on inflatables.
- Foils have better efficiency only the bridles influence this in a bit of negative way.
P.S. LEI companies have bigger bucks, this is what pro's attracts.
Greetings Frank (Psycho owner)
not to mention better looking!!!-
Wetstuff
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Ooooo-Kay...
number 1 : the North
number 2 : the other North
....and 3 for that other thing... What did you say that was?
Just teasing.
THEY ALL LOOK GREAT! (I can't remember a bad photograph of a kite...)
Just you foilers remember: give your other brothers a hand when they be standin' in the shallows tryin' to figure out how they goona get that thing down without puttin' a hole in that big condom.
......it's all fun.
jim
number 1 : the North
number 2 : the other North
....and 3 for that other thing... What did you say that was?
Just teasing.
THEY ALL LOOK GREAT! (I can't remember a bad photograph of a kite...)
Just you foilers remember: give your other brothers a hand when they be standin' in the shallows tryin' to figure out how they goona get that thing down without puttin' a hole in that big condom.
......it's all fun.
jim
In reply to some of the inaccuracies purveyed by the foil brigade, here are the facts:
**Jumping
-2003 inflatables jump higher and float longer than any foil, including the Psycho. Just check it out at your local beach.
** turning
-Because of extra resistance from all the material, bridle etc, (even disregarding the resistance from a leading edge), foils turn much slower than LEIs. Once again, just check it out at your local beach.
** upwind ability
- Once again, because of the extra air resistance and inferior aerodynamic profile, foils track upwind poorly compared to LEIs.
** stability
- There is absolutely no comparison here. Because there is no rigid frame, foils have a tendency to collapse in rotor winds - scary, dangerous, and unforgivable, particularly downwind from promontories.
** stability in gusts
- See above
** hang-time
- See above and first post.
** efficiency are ALL foils are inferior to modern inflatables.
The Psycho (Flysurfer) has been used to as a case in point to support the foil argument... poor choice ram boys. These foils have been SLAMMED in reviews. For anyone wanting the dirt on the Psychos, just check the newsgroups/forums. If you want an unstable, hard to use, jumping pig, buy a foil.
P.S. LEI companies have bigger bucks because they sell more of their product because it is superior - kite consumers are not idiots. Pros are not idiots either: If foils were any good, pros would use them, regardless of sponsorship, if it gave them any sort of edge.
**Jumping
-2003 inflatables jump higher and float longer than any foil, including the Psycho. Just check it out at your local beach.
** turning
-Because of extra resistance from all the material, bridle etc, (even disregarding the resistance from a leading edge), foils turn much slower than LEIs. Once again, just check it out at your local beach.
** upwind ability
- Once again, because of the extra air resistance and inferior aerodynamic profile, foils track upwind poorly compared to LEIs.
** stability
- There is absolutely no comparison here. Because there is no rigid frame, foils have a tendency to collapse in rotor winds - scary, dangerous, and unforgivable, particularly downwind from promontories.
** stability in gusts
- See above
** hang-time
- See above and first post.
** efficiency are ALL foils are inferior to modern inflatables.
The Psycho (Flysurfer) has been used to as a case in point to support the foil argument... poor choice ram boys. These foils have been SLAMMED in reviews. For anyone wanting the dirt on the Psychos, just check the newsgroups/forums. If you want an unstable, hard to use, jumping pig, buy a foil.
P.S. LEI companies have bigger bucks because they sell more of their product because it is superior - kite consumers are not idiots. Pros are not idiots either: If foils were any good, pros would use them, regardless of sponsorship, if it gave them any sort of edge.
In response to the nice photo from taabsr... You Ram boys have got to get it out of your heads that aerodynamic performance is all about POWER. Because of the tangle-prone bridle system, rams have a projected area similar to actual surface area but... SO WHAT!
The aerodynamic superiority of 2003 inflatables has to do with their superior stability, upwind performance, jumping, float time, gust handling, and stability in rotors.
If you need more power, you just buy a bigger inflatable. An inflatable which delivers the same amount of power as a foil will be superior in every respect over a foil in aerodynamic performance.
The aerodynamic superiority of 2003 inflatables has to do with their superior stability, upwind performance, jumping, float time, gust handling, and stability in rotors.
If you need more power, you just buy a bigger inflatable. An inflatable which delivers the same amount of power as a foil will be superior in every respect over a foil in aerodynamic performance.
Your points show that you have never flown a Psycho yourself, if you did you wouldn't have posted them, because you know a lot is not true.
95% of the kiters out there are not pro's, and so other kites are better suited to them, some like to cruise, some like to go big, some like wake-style, for every kiter there is a kite that suits him best.
I almost NEVER read bad reviews on Warrior, Psycho, Guerilla etc... only positive to very positive comments. If these kites are suchs "pigs" as you say why is it that when people try the kites 70-80% of the kiters are amazed about the kite and it's easy of use and performance?
Cheers, Frank (Psycho owner)
Sorry I meant the real big LEI company's (Naish, North, Wipika etc..)The Psycho (Flysurfer) has been used to as a case in point to support the foil argument... poor choice ram boys. These foils have been SLAMMED in reviews. For anyone wanting the dirt on the Psychos, just check the newsgroups/forums. If you want an unstable, hard to use, jumping pig, buy a foil.Please let me now where that is on the web, 95% of the reviews on the Psycho are positive to very positive. The only thing some have against it is that it takes some more skill to fly properly, but it is an advanced kite!
P.S. LEI companies have bigger bucks because they sell more of their product because it is superior - kite consumers are not idiots. Pros are not idiots either: If foils were any good, pros would use them, regardless of sponsorship, if it gave them any sort of edge.
95% of the kiters out there are not pro's, and so other kites are better suited to them, some like to cruise, some like to go big, some like wake-style, for every kiter there is a kite that suits him best.
I almost NEVER read bad reviews on Warrior, Psycho, Guerilla etc... only positive to very positive comments. If these kites are suchs "pigs" as you say why is it that when people try the kites 70-80% of the kiters are amazed about the kite and it's easy of use and performance?
Cheers, Frank (Psycho owner)
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