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DIY pigtails

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matanshapira
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DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:06 pm

Hi,

Will a brummel splice without stitching suffice for 3mm diameter pigtail(burry length is 6cm)?

Amsteel overhand and figure 8 knots slip till the end of the line when tensioning under 75kg load, what line can be used instead?

Thanks,
Matan

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BillyGoatGruff
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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby BillyGoatGruff » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:58 pm

It would, but better would be a Dyneema SK75 or SK99 stitched splice. Buy some strong nylon thread and hand stitch, it's really easy amd a very good skill to master for kitesurfing.

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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby edt » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:16 pm

Image
make sure the knot is where the line is doubled (that is on one of the splices) since a knot halves the line strength
Dyneema is slippery but an overhand or figure 8 will definitely hold. Just have to tighten it properly first before you load it.
So . . . use whatever you like, both knotted lines and spliced lines work. I will usually use that spliced and knotted line above for my pigtails because they are clean to use as both loops and knots.
it takes 60 cm of line to make one of these 15 cm long pigtail loops just to let you know how much line you want to start with.
I think he's doing loops to knots so no point in using needle & thread the knot locks it in place
I think I've made 100 of these pigtails in the past 10 years. I've snapped about a dozen lines over the years, torn attachments in death loops etc., but these spliced loops have never been a problem always held up.
Not sure how a brummel would work in the loops above, because you have to make the knot somehow. I just use a simple splice.
I know you could make one end a loop and one end a knot just seems like I get a shorter pigtail if I splice a loop with a knot in it.
If you make the above pigtail makes sure you use regular kite line not that thick leader since it's a loop the line is doubled and you don't need the extra strength of a 3mm leader line, 1.75mm kite line is plenty strong.

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Kamikuza
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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:22 am

The “strength” is in the buried length of the tail, the Brummell replaces the stitching. IIRC the recommended tail is 72x the diameter of the line...

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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:39 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:22 am
The “strength” is in the buried length of the tail, the Brummell replaces the stitching. IIRC the recommended tail is 72x the diameter of the line...
So how does the pigtails one can buy from kite brands hold with only a few cm of bury?
Anyone makes them from q power line?

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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:50 am

matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:39 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:22 am
The “strength” is in the buried length of the tail, the Brummell replaces the stitching. IIRC the recommended tail is 72x the diameter of the line...
So how does the pigtails one can buy from kite brands hold with only a few cm of bury?
Anyone makes them from q power line?
Well I wouldn’t buy them, but even if they were only 50% of the line’s breaking load, they’re still not the weak link in one’s bar and lines system...

A loop at either end with tails stitched back onto itself shouldn’t actually put much load on the stitches, due to the geometry IIRC but they don’t look good :D

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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:07 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:50 am
matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:39 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:22 am
The “strength” is in the buried length of the tail, the Brummell replaces the stitching. IIRC the recommended tail is 72x the diameter of the line...
So how does the pigtails one can buy from kite brands hold with only a few cm of bury?
Anyone makes them from q power line?
Well I wouldn’t buy them, but even if they were only 50% of the line’s breaking load, they’re still not the weak link in one’s bar and lines system...

A loop at either end with tails stitched back onto itself shouldn’t actually put much load on the stitches, due to the geometry IIRC but they don’t look good :D
You wouldn't buy those?
https://kiteboarding.com/products.asp?cat=Pigtails

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Kamikuza
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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:00 pm

matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:07 am
Kamikuza wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 10:50 am
matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:39 am


So how does the pigtails one can buy from kite brands hold with only a few cm of bury?
Anyone makes them from q power line?
Well I wouldn’t buy them, but even if they were only 50% of the line’s breaking load, they’re still not the weak link in one’s bar and lines system...

A loop at either end with tails stitched back onto itself shouldn’t actually put much load on the stitches, due to the geometry IIRC but they don’t look good :D
You wouldn't buy those?
https://kiteboarding.com/products.asp?cat=Pigtails
No because I can make them and my bury would be the correct length.

The real issue with doing a Brummell is getting them all the same length...

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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby edt » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:19 pm

matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:07 am
You wouldn't buy those?
https://kiteboarding.com/products.asp?cat=Pigtails
those standard pigtails start out about 8 times overstrength, you have about 3mm diameter lines, which is about twice as strong as 1.75mm kite line, then you double it because it's a loop. The short bury/stitching honestly any method used to make these pigtails is inconsequential here. The reason for the amount of overstrength is the same reasoning they use making the chicken line 3 or 4 tons overstrength the extra strength is here just because you expect wear on the pigtails and they make them stronger than needed so they last a bit longer. So basically use anything you want, make whatever you want, keep in mind knots reduce line strength by half but it's fine if you are at least 2x overstrength, but usually pigtails are way stronger than that.

matanshapira's original question is good tho, I have had knots fail on my pigtails because I failed to tighten them enough, always remember how slippery dyneema is.

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Re: DIY pigtails

Postby collider » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:44 pm

Just to clarify a bit - OP mentioned Amsteel as being too slippery for knots - which is absolutely true. Samson recommends splices instead of knots, and doesn't recommend it for use in cleats. Dyneema without the slippery coating is fine for pigtails, but best not to use Amsteel.


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