Contact   Imprint   Advertising   Guidelines

DIY pigtails

Here you can exchange your experience and datas about your home build boards
BWD
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 3645
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2003 3:37 am
Has thanked: 0
Been thanked: 28 times

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby BWD » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:50 pm

Amsteel works fine for pigtails. Have used it since 2005, no problems with splices or knots.

matanshapira
Medium Poster
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:47 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:00 pm

edt wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:19 pm
matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:07 am
You wouldn't buy those?
https://kiteboarding.com/products.asp?cat=Pigtails
those standard pigtails start out about 8 times overstrength, you have about 3mm diameter lines, which is about twice as strong as 1.75mm kite line, then you double it because it's a loop. The short bury/stitching honestly any method used to make these pigtails is inconsequential here. The reason for the amount of overstrength is the same reasoning they use making the chicken line 3 or 4 tons overstrength the extra strength is here just because you expect wear on the pigtails and they make them stronger than needed so they last a bit longer. So basically use anything you want, make whatever you want, keep in mind knots reduce line strength by half but it's fine if you are at least 2x overstrength, but usually pigtails are way stronger than that.

matanshapira's original question is good tho, I have had knots fail on my pigtails because I failed to tighten them enough, always remember how slippery dyneema is.
Thanks a lot!!!
Just to clarify, say I use 3mm line with only 6cm of bury(Brummel splice) and no stitching. Knots start only after the bury. Will it hold? Why?

matanshapira
Medium Poster
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:47 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:02 pm

BWD wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:50 pm
Amsteel works fine for pigtails. Have used it since 2005, no problems with splices or knots.
How do you tighten the knots? It just keeps sliding for me

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6333
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:16 am

matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:00 pm
edt wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:19 pm
matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:07 am
You wouldn't buy those?
https://kiteboarding.com/products.asp?cat=Pigtails
those standard pigtails start out about 8 times overstrength, you have about 3mm diameter lines, which is about twice as strong as 1.75mm kite line, then you double it because it's a loop. The short bury/stitching honestly any method used to make these pigtails is inconsequential here. The reason for the amount of overstrength is the same reasoning they use making the chicken line 3 or 4 tons overstrength the extra strength is here just because you expect wear on the pigtails and they make them stronger than needed so they last a bit longer. So basically use anything you want, make whatever you want, keep in mind knots reduce line strength by half but it's fine if you are at least 2x overstrength, but usually pigtails are way stronger than that.

matanshapira's original question is good tho, I have had knots fail on my pigtails because I failed to tighten them enough, always remember how slippery dyneema is.
Thanks a lot!!!
Just to clarify, say I use 3mm line with only 6cm of bury(Brummel splice) and no stitching. Knots start only after the bury. Will it hold? Why?
Knots start where?

It’ll hold. Depending on your design :D

matanshapira
Medium Poster
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:47 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:58 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:16 am
matanshapira wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:00 pm
edt wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:19 pm


those standard pigtails start out about 8 times overstrength, you have about 3mm diameter lines, which is about twice as strong as 1.75mm kite line, then you double it because it's a loop. The short bury/stitching honestly any method used to make these pigtails is inconsequential here. The reason for the amount of overstrength is the same reasoning they use making the chicken line 3 or 4 tons overstrength the extra strength is here just because you expect wear on the pigtails and they make them stronger than needed so they last a bit longer. So basically use anything you want, make whatever you want, keep in mind knots reduce line strength by half but it's fine if you are at least 2x overstrength, but usually pigtails are way stronger than that.

matanshapira's original question is good tho, I have had knots fail on my pigtails because I failed to tighten them enough, always remember how slippery dyneema is.
Thanks a lot!!!
Just to clarify, say I use 3mm line with only 6cm of bury(Brummel splice) and no stitching. Knots start only after the bury. Will it hold? Why?
Knots start where?

It’ll hold. Depending on your design :D
It's a part for a Cloud kite bridle that looks like a slingshot pigtail, I checked the details of what I made:
4mm line
1cm loop with a Brummel splice, then a 5cm of bury, then 4 overhand knots with 1.5cm between each(no bury in the section of the knots)
Thanks for your help

There's one thing I don't understand, the rope makers and riggers use x72 diameter of bury while in the kite industry we see pigtails and other bar parts with few cm only

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6333
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:25 am

So you’re only splicing a loop in one end? And the knots are below that?

Burying the tail stops the eye slipping through the Lark’s head. Brummell or stitching stops the tail coming out when the line is unloaded.

Manufacturers can save some money I guess by providing pigtails at less than 100% of breaking load — but still well above the flying line’s breaking load. So long as the tail can’t move, the whole thing is secure.

IIRC someone did a test and Brummell only, no bury, was still 80% of the breaking load.

matanshapira
Medium Poster
Posts: 86
Joined: Thu May 25, 2006 10:47 pm
Has thanked: 33 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby matanshapira » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:31 am

Kamikuza wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:25 am
So you’re only splicing a loop in one end? And the knots are below that?

Burying the tail stops the eye slipping through the Lark’s head. Brummell or stitching stops the tail coming out when the line is unloaded.

Manufacturers can save some money I guess by providing pigtails at less than 100% of breaking load — but still well above the flying line’s breaking load. So long as the tail can’t move, the whole thing is secure.

IIRC someone did a test and Brummell only, no bury, was still 80% of the breaking load.
Yes, one end and loops below that.
So it'll hold according to his test, thanks a lot.
I guess that with a really small bury the strands might seperate and slide through the splice, just a theory

nixmatters
Frequent Poster
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2016 12:38 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Gear: custom made
Brand Affiliation: None
Has thanked: 70 times
Been thanked: 32 times

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby nixmatters » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:41 am

Slightly off topic - that seems like a Brummel splice, doesn't it?
I wonder how they managed to get perfectly equal length and tension on all their 'lines'?!

https://bikerumor.com/2019/10/12/frm-we ... tain-bike/
Attachments
Screenshot_20191027_063101.jpg

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6333
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:45 am

matanshapira wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:31 am
Yes, one end and loops below that.
So it'll hold according to his test, thanks a lot.
I guess that with a really small bury the strands might seperate and slide through the splice, just a theory
IIRC again, it stretched the holes somewhat and then snapped at the splice. There was video of the test too, but I'll never find it again I'm sure :lol:

Also of interest -- one of the splices snapped at the end of the tail. That's happened to me too ... you have to taper the tail properly or it creates a stress point.

User avatar
Kamikuza
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 6333
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:49 am
Local Beach: Sabae Beach
Favorite Beaches: Ol' Stinky
Gear: This, that, the other
Has thanked: 79 times
Been thanked: 61 times

Re: DIY pigtails

Postby Kamikuza » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:48 am

nixmatters wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:41 am
Slightly off topic - that seems like a Brummel splice, doesn't it?
I wonder how they managed to get perfectly equal length and tension on all their 'lines'?!

https://bikerumor.com/2019/10/12/frm-we ... tain-bike/
I guess that would work. Wouldn't want to be the guy doing the job though :D

Making the loop and burying is easy, the issue comes making a loop at the other end and then 4 more exactly the same. They'd be able to trim the line at the rim, surely...


Return to “Gear Builders”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest