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Splicing my first set of lines

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Jonaszw
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Splicing my first set of lines

Postby Jonaszw » Mon Apr 06, 2020 9:49 am

Hi

Let me start by saying that I have already searched on this forum and find some information everywhere, but I do not fully find the answer to my questions. The information I found is from many years ago so it does not seems to be up to date. It's a bit confusing to me that's why I started a new topic, but if this topic is out of place, please let me know and I will move it to where it belongs.

A few weeks ago I started searching for information about replacing and making kite lines myself. The guy from premium ropes told me that if I splice the lines I would get the best result, which I learned since then. On kiteforums I often read the discussion about whether splicing, knot or sleeving kitelines, so I have chosen to effectively opt for splicing like the guy from premium ropes suggested. So I would not like to have this discussion here again unless there is a significant drawback to splicing that I overlook.

Now that I manage splicing relatively well, I wanted to put this into practice and replace my first lines on my NAISH ATB 2019 BAR. My front line had broken at sea, so I had to replace it. It was a 24m line that I wanted to replace, but due to an incorrect delivery of premium ropes, the plan was unfortunately changed to 20m lines.

Unfortunately, I now have some problems that I hope I can get an answer to. These are all about the length of the lines and especially measuring the identical length on both lines.

- After a lot of trying (attaching the lines to a fixed point and then pulling hard on the other side and cutting the lines) I managed to cut 4 exact lines and also splice them on one side. Now that I placed this on my Naish bar, I have unfortunately noticed that my safety lines are MUCH shorter than my steering lines. Which is strange, because the should be the same lenght as my steering lines. It is about a difference of 1 to 2m. Probably a ridiculous question, but what am I doing wrong? I've cut the lines the exact same lenght and I can't imagine I lost about 2 meters wile splicing the lines. Even if the bar is fully powdered, the difference is still way to large I think.

- In addition, I wondered from what length the difference in length becomes clear on the bar while flying the kite. Obviously, the steering lines and safety lines must each have the same length, but is a difference of a few millimeters or maybe even a centimeter already noticeable? Measuring the right lenght for all lines is very difficult for me, sometimes I just have a few millimeters difference when splicing.

I used SK99 Pre stretched lines.

Thanks for the help.

Breze
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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby Breze » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:29 am

[quote=Jonaszw

- After a lot of trying (attaching the lines to a fixed point and then pulling hard on the other side and cutting the lines) I managed to cut 4 exact lines and also splice them on one side. Now that I placed this on my Naish bar, I have unfortunately noticed that my safety lines are MUCH shorter than my steering lines. Which is strange, because the should be the same lenght as my steering lines. It is about a difference of 1 to 2m. Probably a ridiculous question, but what am I doing wrong? I've cut the lines the exact same lenght and I can't imagine I lost about 2 meters wile splicing the lines. Even if the bar is fully powdered, the difference is still way to large I think.

- In addition, I wondered from what length the difference in length becomes clear on the bar while flying the kite. Obviously, the steering lines and safety lines must each have the same length, but is a difference of a few millimeters or maybe even a centimeter already noticeable? Measuring the right lenght for all lines is very difficult for me, sometimes I just have a few millimeters difference when splicing
[/quote]

Hi Jonas
I guess you mean a difference of 1-2 cm, not m ? right?
If your frontlines( e.g:1.8mm) have a bigger diameter than your backlines(e.g: 1.3mm), you will loose 1-2 cm with a 15 cm splice.

1 cm difference of BL to FL is not a problem. 5cm is a probleme you solve by using the trimmer to shorten FL or shorten/ lengthen the BL at the pigtails by moving knots, making new knots, undoing knots on side of the kite. At the side of the bar often you find a knotladder under the floaters of the BL.

OT: safety line is the single line on witch the kite hangs if QR is activated
Frontlines = powerlines . Backlines= stearinglines

hope the diff is cm , not m :thumb:

Jonaszw
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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby Jonaszw » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:42 am

Breze wrote:
Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:29 am
[quote=Jonaszw

- After a lot of trying (attaching the lines to a fixed point and then pulling hard on the other side and cutting the lines) I managed to cut 4 exact lines and also splice them on one side. Now that I placed this on my Naish bar, I have unfortunately noticed that my safety lines are MUCH shorter than my steering lines. Which is strange, because the should be the same lenght as my steering lines. It is about a difference of 1 to 2m. Probably a ridiculous question, but what am I doing wrong? I've cut the lines the exact same lenght and I can't imagine I lost about 2 meters wile splicing the lines. Even if the bar is fully powdered, the difference is still way to large I think.

- In addition, I wondered from what length the difference in length becomes clear on the bar while flying the kite. Obviously, the steering lines and safety lines must each have the same length, but is a difference of a few millimeters or maybe even a centimeter already noticeable? Measuring the right lenght for all lines is very difficult for me, sometimes I just have a few millimeters difference when splicing
Hi Jonas
I guess you mean a difference of 1-2 cm, not m ? right?
If your frontlines( e.g:1.8mm) have a bigger diameter than your backlines(e.g: 1.3mm), you will loose 1-2 cm with a 15 cm splice.

1 cm difference of BL to FL is not a problem. 5cm is a probleme you solve by using the trimmer to shorten FL or shorten/ lengthen the BL at the pigtails by moving knots, making new knots, undoing knots on side of the kite. At the side of the bar often you find a knotladder under the floaters of the BL.

OT: safety line is the single line on witch the kite hangs if QR is activated
Frontlines = powerlines . Backlines= stearinglines

hope the diff is cm , not m :thumb:
[/quote]

Thanks, I know, I actully meant front line indeed, but I forgot to edit my post. Thanks for your help!

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lovethepirk
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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby lovethepirk » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:45 am

I'm all confused with your terminology so let me state that you have 4 flying lines. You have the 'center lines' and you have the 'steering lines'.

In my terminology the safety line is the line that extends past the metal bracket where your center lines meet. Many companies sell this line as a 'flag out line'.

Now to answer the simple question of how to makes sure one line isn't 2mm different from the other when splicing. Well, as you learned when you pulled the 20m lines tight to cut them correctly they are elastic like a rubber band at that length. All you can do is splice one end on each line and pull tight one by one and mark where to cut. I continue that process on each line matching them with each other over and over until my markings find a solid average and I cut the lines there. All your lines will be within a deviation of 2mm hopefully now.

As you then learned when you splice the lines get smaller, all you can do here is measure very carefully on each line and repeat the process the same. Now, let's hope your lines may deviate at a worse case scenario of say 4mm or 1/4 inch. 2mm doesn't bother me at all with any of my lines. I fix my lines once I see 4mm deviation. Given that you may finish splicing all the other ends of your flying lines and still come out 4mm incorrect, how does one fix this? Well, I make all those deviations up with my own made pigtails. I tie a normal knot on the ends of my center line pigtail that I can undo and move or just tie another knot and have several knots on the end of one pigtail. Since my steering line pigtails have loops on both ends, this is not possible for those, so you adjust the deviations in your steering lines by moving the knots on the thick lines coming out of the ends of your bar. Hope that makes sense. I actually really don't even care about how accurate my flying lines are cut or spliced b/c I make all the problems up with the pigtails and the lines change lengths over time anyway.

Now, I cannot help you with a 2 meter error. You stated you replaced your power line. I can only assume that is the very thick and strong grey rope attached to your chicken loop and heads up through the metal trimmer bracket. If you are cutting all your flying lines exactly the same length then that power rope needs to be an exact length. That rope needs to be the exact distance to set the metal trimmer bracket to be exactly the same distance away from the bar as the lines coming out of the bar ends. Imagine this....right now you remove that power rope and cut it in half and put it right back into the bar. Your metal trimmer bracket will now be much closer to you and hence easier to reach any trim handle that is swinging in the wind. You would then need to make those center flying lines longer than your steering flying lines...or on the other hand you could just make very long pigtails. Hope that makes sense.

By the way...I wouldn't ever let an incorrect shipment or order move my setup from 24m to 20m. I would stick with what works. I tried 27m lines 2 yrs ago and absolutely love them . I foil mostly in light ass wind so that obviously helps me, but I started throwing kiteloops in 25+ knots this winter and the long lines are almost like cheating when looping. I looped my friends 20m lines after using my 27m lines and I felt like I got shot out of a damn cannon. Never will do that again. I'm 27m for life.

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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby Herman » Mon Apr 06, 2020 10:47 am

Line sets are only even between rear and center if the bar leaders are also even.

Measuring is ok to get the approx length but to get lines even it is easier to do it by comparison. For final splice put a mark on the shortest line at half the loop size + full bury from the end. Pull out other lines and mark same distance using the first line as the comparison. Mark the loop ends on all lines, the first mark is the centre of these, slice accordingly.

Leave an allowance on the bury length so you can make minor adjustments before sowing.

Don't get hung up on minor errors as final adjustments and maintenance is done with leader length adjustment. Take most care with the center lines.

Your major discrepancy sounds like you may have omitted to check what is going on with the leaders? I can't be specific because I do not know the bar!

Regards Herman

PS You can use Brummells if you want but you loose the ability to make final micro adjustment. Personally I don't use them on flying line, but some like them.
Last edited by Herman on Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby andikite » Mon Apr 06, 2020 11:19 am

Cut the lines at the same length is not the key point in my opinion (it's neccesary anyway). Make sure to mark the splice ends at the same length in each line, this point will ensure the final lenght of your line. Obviously making splices you must accept 1-3 mm of desviation.

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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby Jfactor » Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:37 pm

I have a few questions for you:

1 - Are the line diameters the same?
Often time the front lines can be a bit heavier than the steering lines. When you bury the tail, the line length shrinks! The shrink is more pronounced in the thicker diameters as well. Best advice I can give is to splice one end with a loop, attach it to a fixed point. Stretch out the lines and put one mark across all of them roughly 500mm from the end, this will be the loop end. Next, splice all four lines with a few pass throughs and a lonngg bury. Bury the full length of the tail. Do not lock this splice. Attach the lines to a fixed point and stretch them out. Since the splice is not locked, you can lengthen the loops by simply pulling the tail out of the bury. This can allow you to get very small error between all of the lines.

2- When did you notice the line lengths were different? Was it when you put them on the bar, or was it just after you finished splicing?
There are other variables on the bar that contribute to line length. There are connecting lines that attach the steering lines to the bar ends, as well as your trim line. Make sure that those are adjusted for "equal length lines". I like to make the steering connecting lines adjustable to correct for length errors. Otherwise, you can fix these by making pigtails. If you have replaced your trim line or made your own, ensure that all four connecting points are still even as shown in the picture below.
2020-04-06 09_48_47-Untitled - Paint.png

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Re: Splicing my first set of lines

Postby tkaraszewski » Mon Apr 06, 2020 7:29 pm

Cutting the lines the same length is not key. Measuring the length from the center of the splice is key.

What I do when making lines is cut them to approximately the right length, slightly longer so you can trim any excess.

Then do the brummel splice on one end of each line. I bury the ends 6" deep for these in ~1-1.5mm lines.

You now have four lines with loops on one end of each one.

Now, slide you loops over some fixed object (you can use something like a screwdriver in a vice for this) and pull all of the lines equally tight. You can tell they're equally tight when they all droop equally at the center. If one line is hanging lower than the others, pull it tighter until they hang equally.

Now, mark all four lines at once at the appropriate length of 20m (or whatever length you've chosen), and this mark will be the *center* of the brummel splice on the other end. You can mark either side of this center mark for the ends of the loop. This way, all four of your lines will come out the same length.

*BUT* like JFactor said, this only works if the lines at the bar are the same length. I've built custom lines for a bar that work exactly this way: the denter depower line and the leader lines are exactly 1m long:
Image

If your depower system is longer or shorter than your leader lines, you'll need to adjust your center versus steering line lengths to compensate. The idea that "all four lines are equal length" is all four lines on a completely assembled bar, not any particular piece of line.


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