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Open Fuse

Here you can exchange your experience and datas about your home build boards
fluidity
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Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby fluidity » Wed Sep 02, 2020 9:46 am

Mossy and Downunder, I'm a kiter but the start of my foiling experiences is wing surfing. So my first wing wingspan is 980mm. It usually goes on the car complete with board but I plan to design and build more wings. For me, I want one fuselage and to be able to swap out the wings, maybe later stabiliser as well.

fluidity
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Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby fluidity » Thu Sep 03, 2020 7:00 am

It's really modularity I'm after. At the moment all the manufacturers are doing their own thing and you can't easily mix and match. Which is surely a pity because if you like one brand's fuselage and another brand's mast and you want a third brand for front foil and to make your own stabiliser, it's unlikely to happen :argue:
Some of the fuselages look like they can be easily made to work with other mast brands, i.e. the gong and some of the other fuselages have a rectangle routed hollow which can have a 3D printed insert or moulded insert switched out for different masts. All of us DIY fabricators can likely do a reasonable job of fitting random fuselages into our own wing designs by PVA release coating them and lining them up with our wing blanks before moulding our composites over the whole lot. But that wing will be forever stuck to being used on that brand of fuselage and it's not good enough. Manufacturers should be taking responsibility to make this less painful for their customers. Kiting companies, winging companies(i.e. Ensis is ONLY selling wings from what I can see), many of them don't sell hydrofoils. Most of them are going to be keen as mustard to add a range and brand them though because winging is pulling in windsurfers, kiters, surfers and wake boarders eager to hit a new challenge.
Some of the designers are used by multiple companies who don't do much more than change the colours or maybe a texture or outer shape or cloth and slap their own logo on it.
As buyers we have a responsibility to be sensible about our purchases to maximise value for money and right now, every company going off in their own direction is quietly failing us.

Mossy 757
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:06 pm

Yeah with those build considerations, I guess what I'd recommend is to find a mast you really like and a fuse you can work with then make wings. In that sense, all the considerations of wings goes out the window and you're selecting a mast/fuse setup that's extra stiff and durable so that any wing combo you slap on there will be fun.

My only final piece of advice if you do go that route is to avoid any mast-to-fuselage junction that relies on a mortise and tenon configuration, they seem to have a more finite lifespan than other construction techniques.


Edit: Not sure about the new Levitaz "Iron Box" they're using with the R5, it's an M&T design but they used steel instead of CF so it's very different in that regard.

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jakemoore
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby jakemoore » Thu Sep 03, 2020 8:34 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 12:06 pm

My only final piece of advice if you do go that route is to avoid any mast-to-fuselage junction that relies on a mortise and tenon configuration, they seem to have a more finite lifespan than other construction techniques.
Like Moses?

Mossy 757
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby Mossy 757 » Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:58 pm

Yeah Moses are like that, my Delta is like that, Chubanga V2...I just think it's not the best connection you can make. I'm not making any comment about Moses specifically, just the kind of junction they and others use, mostly in Carbon fiber models. If the fuselage is metal I think it's a different story potentially, and that's why I'd exempt Levitaz because it appears they're using a metal piece they call an "Iron Box" as the junction to the mast.

I've seen a few models crack those junctions from the torque the strut puts on the inside of the thin carbon fuselage during hard riding, and the owners essentially had to fuse the mast and make a 1 piece foil that could not disassemble.

Mike's and Chubanga are now getting away from that because the top of the fuselage creates a nice large flat seal to the strut, almost like a little mini-plate-mount.

Or, again, something metal seems like a good idea there. The old Sword2 was interesting in that the mast and fuselage were 1 piece like a T and the wings came off with screws. That was pretty cool.

PrfctChaos
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby PrfctChaos » Fri Sep 04, 2020 12:31 am

Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:58 pm
Or, again, something metal seems like a good idea there. The old Sword2 was interesting in that the mast and fuselage were 1 piece like a T and the wings came off with screws. That was pretty cool.
But the place where the wings mount on Sword2 is profiled to fit the wings, which makes it more difficult to make new wings to fit on it. (I made a wing for a Sword2 and it took a lot of measuring and a bit of finishing to get a good fit). It think the single piece Mast & fuselage designs from Gong and Gofoil have merit (They look similar but different sizes as far as I know...). Where wings and fuselage just plug into the tapered sockets on either end, should be easy enough to mold that socket using a cheap aluminium fuselage from gong.

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jakemoore
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby jakemoore » Fri Sep 04, 2020 1:15 am

Mossy 757 wrote:
Thu Sep 03, 2020 10:58 pm
Yeah Moses are like that, my Delta is like that, Chubanga V2...

I've seen a few models crack those junctions from the torque the strut puts on the inside of the thin carbon fuselage during hard riding, and the owners essentially had to fuse the mast and make a 1 piece foil that could not disassemble.
Thats an interesting observation. I always thought the mortice and tenon provided one of the strongest joints. The butt joint of many Alu mast foil to fuse strikes me as an inherently weaker design. Its true the only fuselage I have seen fail was Moses (metal) but that was in somebody who spends more time in the air than riding it in the water and lands hot all the time. Maybe the issue is not so much the joint itself but how much material is taken away? Ketos and Alpine may have a little more material where the joint is and the latest Lift fuselages are pretty beefy. I wonder what else you have seen broken.

TomW
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby TomW » Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:01 pm

I like the idea of : open interface that will standardize mast/fuse and wing/fuse interface. But unfortunately, I don't think any volume manufacturers will adopt it. It goes against their business model.
Another way to promote it is someone creates it, open sources feedback and integrates it into a final design. Then publishes the 3D files and smaller makers/ designers start designing wings ( and publishing them too) so people and start-up foil companies can make them. It would have to be a design that is relatively simple to make.
It would probably be adopted by Chinese companies. Same as happened with open OX cnc.

fluidity
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Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
Has thanked: 14 times
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby fluidity » Sun Sep 06, 2020 12:23 am

TomW wrote:
Sat Sep 05, 2020 9:01 pm
I like the idea of : open interface that will standardize mast/fuse and wing/fuse interface. But unfortunately, I don't think any volume manufacturers will adopt it. It goes against their business model.
Another way to promote it is someone creates it, open sources feedback and integrates it into a final design. Then publishes the 3D files and smaller makers/ designers start designing wings ( and publishing them too) so people and start-up foil companies can make them. It would have to be a design that is relatively simple to make.
It would probably be adopted by Chinese companies. Same as happened with open OX cnc.
I'm not convinced it's against all viable business models.
If there is a standard that standard becomes a draw card for sales and you want to be able to supply gear to fit that standard but improve on the performance of it.

Once there are parts out there following an open standard a DIY builder can mould off a wing socket or interface on the fuselage.

The commercial 3D printing organisations are also easy enough to set up a template interface with that people can buy direct from the 3D printer.

I like the simplicity of both the Gong square cross section fuselage and the armstrong tapered hex front joint but...
I think the reliability of the hex fit is significantly affected by the quality carbon prepreg Armstrong use. There has to be a wrap around section of wing socket before the outer layers of carbon are bonded else there is risk of top and bottom layers slipping from torque forces. I think the taper is good but I'd be more in favor of a tapered square section.

The mast joint has to be deep socket or with fingers that lock inside the mast. Unfortunately, the fingers inside the mast approach (like f-one) precludes flexibility in mast types, the inside cross-sections of masts are the most variable.

In composite fabric construction sockets like that on the Gong fuselage are still very acheivable, it's a question of how the layup is done. I would be sandwiching unidirectional lengthways and folded in and around the mast socket with inner and outer braid. However there are alloys that would also do a fantastic job and are faster and cheaper to mould(in mass production).

Front wings need to go deep down in the water so need to be either in line or under-slung. A V notch to take the trailing edge of a front wing is a poor idea because it requires adaptors for different wing thicknesses and a good fit on thicker wings makes a bad fit on thin wings. Also structurally, it's easy to heatshrink braid over a shaft but when it splits into a V, you need braid overlap and you have seams to smooth out.

Stabilisers have vastly reduced torque loads and don't really need a socket attachment as much as the ability to tune the stabiliser angle.

I'll design something up over the next few weeks for comparisons, I think most of us have the same goals, it's just a matter of size.

Does anyone have a preference for under-slung or over-slung stabilisers?

fluidity
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Posts: 257
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2016 11:20 pm
Local Beach: Ngati Toa, Plimmerton, Titahi Bay, Waikanae, Petone, Seatoun, Lyall Bay, Eastbourne, Lake Wairarapa
Style: Wave, jump
Gear: Old Flexfoil 9, Switch Element V4 11m, Ocean Rodeo Prodigy 7m 2014, Nitro14m v6, Nitro9m v6 12mSwitch Legacy2
DIY CAD ultra-concave wave twintips 1500 and 130mm with my own fin designs. Easy upwind, awesome carving. Switch Nitro 10m V7, Naish 5.3m Wing. Building my own foils from my CAD design and 3D prints.
Has thanked: 14 times
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Re: Open Fuse.

Postby fluidity » Tue Sep 08, 2020 10:58 am

This is my work in progress.
I have a 3D tube plotting program I wrote years ago and this week I've given it a weak 4-lobe bias to make it slightly square and then I wrote some partial range sinusoidal offset functions so that I can make it smoothly wider at the mast and wing positions in the horizontal plane and smoothly deeper in the fuselage position to naturally create a more substantial socket for the mast with more height and with more thickness to carry material for strength. It still needs wing-socket profiling in the front and stabiliser junction profiling in the rear as well as an actual mast socket profile subtracted. There's also a subtle tapering smaller towards the back but keeping thickness in the front/middle where leverage forces are highest. The proportion and position of each of these swellings are all easily adjustable.
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