What flex and other non rigid structures do in nature is equivalent of matching of impedance in electric circuits. It is there for better and more efficient energy transfer from muscles to media /air/water/.Trent hink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:09 amMy comment might be a bit naive, but I have no doubt that there exists the possiblity for a great deal of improvement in our modern hydrofoils, so this idea is definitely worth pursuing.
One of the things I notice when I look at natural examples of wings and fins, is that not only does the shape often change, but also the angle of attack.
It's my belief that your idea lacks the refinements to achieve your goal. Consider that a distorted wing of your concept looses it's designed foil shape and efficiency.yenice wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 11:40 amI agree with your explanation above. Let us consider now that all your explained actions are transferred by means of board->mast to the foil as a whole. Then the foil system is like a whale doing these actions by his muscles and skeleton. Front-wing deflects somewhat as the forces of drive and drag change on it to a certain degree, but the deflection increases towards trailing edge of the wing and also towards the tips of the wing on both sides of the wing more. In order to facilitate this, I need to have a very stiff and solid area near the Mast-Wing connection section of the wing, but this stiffness needs to be decreased gradually towards the tips of the wing on both sides. In order to achieve it, I consider to build the front wing as follows:fluidity wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:15 amYenice, you need to keep in mind that most of the development of flex in any flexible materials on the front wing when you are foiling will be from your own weight. The current pumping motion people employ is to push down on the board to lift themselves up, deweight the front first so that forward motion will then drive the foil up, then as you come down from your jump, land on the front first and glide down and forward.
Full fiberglass lamination on top and on bottom of the wing, keeping flexibility in mind.
Carbon lamination on top and also on the bottom of the wing ONLY near the center line of the wing with patches of decreasing area to the surface of the wing. That way the forces coming from the mast will be transferred uniformly without any local stress concentrations and they will also first meet a very stiff section of the wing, with stiffness decreasing uniformly as geometry gets further away from the center of the wing, increasing flexibility as distance from center increases.
http://nickflutter.blogspot.com/2011/01 ... t.html?m=1
This website shows a method to make the trailing edge of the foil wing flexible by means of a hinge. What if the trailing edge flexes without any hinge, because its core cross section gets progressively smaller in area (airfoil shape or a drop of water in free fall) and the glass lamination over that core is made flexible too.
My flexing-wing idea is an attempt to make these qualities of the learner foils improved. How much improvement is possible? I do not know.
Thank you very much for those lines. I understand that your proposal is to make the fuselage between mast-joint and rear wing also flexible. This much I have not thought before. The rear wing would than act as if the tail of a whale indeed. But I did not understand the details you mentioned. Would you please make a simple sketch or something for me to grab the details? As English is not my mother language, I am having a hard time to grab your remarks fully.fluidity wrote: ↑Sun Mar 20, 2022 2:15 amYenice, .. You can use a square 12mm Titanium section of about 400mm long to the stabiliser from a stub fuselage with about 200mm stronger, from the rear of the back of the mast if you like, this will give you small tail flex and pumping drive from just pulsing your back foot and not doing much else.
What I meant by reduced cost:tmcfarla wrote: 1.) since you mentioned “reduced cost” as a reason for building your own, be aware that you are probably going to spend more money for something that, at best, rides half as well as an off-the-shelf foil. Working with cf is hard, and you aren’t going to do it right the first time. Designing wings is hard, won’t do that right the first time either.
"Cost of full carbon wing" > "Cost of full glass wing with some local carbon patches"
The rest is the price I may be willing to pay for my DIY enjoyments. After 50 years of DIY, I know what that means.
Wing half.jpg
I wish I could be so near to a whale myself, without disturbing their living. You are lucky to be one of a few to have done it. Such an occasion would be a very happy memory for me too.Bille wrote: For the spar in your wing :
I recommend No core on the spar itself ; I would use Uni
on both sides of +-45 glass instead , or the core will
just break down after 20,000 cycles of bending.
The foam core can go in front, and behind the spar though .
Bille
What do you mean by "spar" I do not get. If my first foil experiment would survive 20k cycles, I would consider it a very successful first prototype But of course, would consider the steps to make it better anyway even for the first prototype.
You're right and personally I've found flex with composites interesting too. Fibre layup is critical to flex characteristics as is the compression and tension fibre selection. Do keep in mind that at the flexure extremes the foil will be highly distorted or so non-high-aspect ratio that it might resemble a flipper more than a hydrofoil. Speed and pumping frequency change with ability and foil type, our thread author is at the start of his journey and will benefit from getting away from the drawing board and in the water above a foil...tomtom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 12:15 amI like that he want to explore new possibilities. There is something about flex. I can made interface for more effcient energy transfer. PM me. I know a lot about flexible composite structures. But you need somebody with deep aero/hydro knowledge to execute this
Ok, my comment is totally naive... And I completely agree about what I am dreaming about being non trivial!tomtom wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:29 amWhat flex and other non rigid structures do in nature is equivalent of matching of impedance in electric circuits. It is there for better and more efficient energy transfer from muscles to media /air/water/.Trent hink wrote: ↑Mon Mar 21, 2022 1:09 amMy comment might be a bit naive, but I have no doubt that there exists the possiblity for a great deal of improvement in our modern hydrofoils, so this idea is definitely worth pursuing.
One of the things I notice when I look at natural examples of wings and fins, is that not only does the shape often change, but also the angle of attack.
To usefully utilize this is quite non trivial and will require many prototypes, metodical testing and preferably sort of generative design software support.
All of this had nature in disposition in evolution process.
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