Brummel splice (again) but including knot in the eye

[rnelias]

Folks, I'm training Brummel splice building some pigtails but would like to include a knot within the eye.

Most of the tutorials do not include this knot and we must pass the line through the weave twice to reverse the lock.

What's the secret?

pks_2021_universal_pigtail_set_v3-1.jpg (11.8 KiB) Viewed 2741 times

[Sun]

Not sure those are Brummels, think just plain splice, but I will let the sailmakers / wizards reply if it can be done with Brummels.

[Herman]

Don’t use the single end method and tie the knot in the second loop. A single loop passes through the line easily enough. I often thread a line for this rather use a fid - unless I am missing something. Weird to me that people want to use the single end method when it is not needed.

PS the pigs in the photo look like short buries that will rely to an extent on the stitching for additional strength…….I would be surprised if they have Brummell locks!!

[OzBungy]

Yep. Do the tail through the line method for the knotted end and the loop through the line method for the loop end.

You don't need much bury for the knot end. The line is looped around the knot. You're really only doing a bury for cosmetic reasons. You could just as easily have a straight length of line with a knot in it.

Realistically, for pigtails you don't need much bury at either end. The lines attaching are hitched on so the bury never really gets much load on it, especially if you're doing a Brummel.

My preferred way of splicing pigtails is to use a longish bury at both ends and pull them all the way down so they pass each other (so you have a double thickness inside) then taper and pull back then sew. That eliminates the thin section in the middle. If you're going to sew you can get rid of the Brummel too. It's easier to make things to a specific length if you can slide the loop to suit.

Alternatively, consistenly mark up your Brummel pigtails and make them all the same. You can't make them to a specific length (because the pass through and the bury all consume length) but you can make a consistent set of pigtails then use other parts of the bar and lines to do fined adjustment.

Don't believe all the comments you get about knots and stuff. Take in all the tips and techniques then sit down and trial a bunch of options. Make sure you understand what is happening with each element of the project. Then you can design whatever you're happy with.

[rnelias]

After OzBungy's post I've made the following set of pigtails. They're locked on both sides and I've cut and marked the four pieces of lines before making the pigtails, thus, they've finished with practically the same length as expected

[Herman]

I assume you have no stitching, in which case I would not use them, without proof testing! I used to have the same philosophy as Ozbunny, and it is obvious that the larks head provides helpful friction. As an experiment, I even flew some sleeved connections with larks head without any bury just a safety stopper knot and they stayed in place without slipping to the safety stopper knot. However this was not dyneema to dyneema contact; dyneema is slippery stuff with relatively low coefficient of friction. I then asked a fellow forum member to do some tests and he found the slippage to be significant with dyneema to dyneema at relatively low loads. There is also a YouTube vid on Brummell lock testing with short and no bury; slippage caused failure at relatively low loads. Even though I have many hrs on such pigs with manufacturers stitching if I am relying on a Brummell or loose hand stitching and plain splice I will always choose to have a full length bury and taper if I want close to full line strength.

PS Search YouTube - Are tapering splices that important in Dyneema. Brummell tests are at end of video.
Just to be clear, it is not the lack of taper that bothers me as the tails butt together, it is the shortness of the bury. Of course if it is 3 mm you do not need full line strength but I have not seen any data on interpolating splice strength with respect to bury length to make the judgment call required in this case. Does half bury length give half line strength??