Sleeving kite lines

[azoele]

Thanks Evan, very interesting suggestion!

May I ask though why would a longer splice help with wear?
Is it that the line will wear to the point of snapping, but no snapping would occur because there'd be the buried splice connecting the now "broken" halves and thus acting as a line itself?

Never thought of this, but might be a very, very smart move.

Of course I'd never have thought of it, and was thinking instead of using large (3mm) dyneema for the first part of the lines, which I read in the thread only causes problems.
I have a talent for the wrong solution

Make the splice longer, like 1-2m for the first part or splice a 2m lower section of 2mm line onto a thinner one to combat wear at the cross point.
How long it needs to depends on line length, kite size/type and bar width.

On race bars this works extremely well as you can completely wear through the outer line before it as an impact on breaking strength extending the life of a line set by 2-4x and only need an 80cm splice so little extra work for such big gain.

On the line ends, use pigtails or find a way to also double up the line in the loop so it lasts a bit longer.

[azoele]

Hat off to you
I never succeeded.
Not once!

And yes, the key factor (besides the fact that I was trying to brummel-lock), was the very tight weaving of the sleeve, making for hard work.

This was the spliced eye with sleeve I made.
Very painful to do, the sleeve weave is too tight.
Pigtails are far more practical

[azoele]

Not to be ungrateful for all the suggestions, a general thank you all

I find working on bars to be very relaxing (until I have to use my bars in harsh conditions... and then all sorts of doubts creep up ), and I just love to spend time splicing, cutting, trying to improve.

Every suggestion is welcome, because it increases both my pleasure – which is good – and my safety, for which I'm grateful to you.

[edt]

Of course I'd never have thought of it, and was thinking instead of using large (3mm) dyneema for the first part of the lines, which I read in the thread only causes problems.

This is fine I do it, however you have to drill out some holes in the flag out safety system to fit the larger line.

[azoele]

Of course I'd never have thought of it, and was thinking instead of using large (3mm) dyneema for the first part of the lines, which I read in the thread only causes problems.

This is fine I do it, however you have to drill out some holes in the flag out safety system to fit the larger line.

So you don't have any issues with "prelines" being very thick?

Like having the first meter or so of the fronts and backs being 3mm dyneema?

Am thinking mostly about controlling kite power with the bar when lines are twisted after a loop, and possibly worse relaunch characteristic due to bigger water attrition.

It is a cool idea, though!

And I found a source of nicely coloured dyneema at last: Liros Magic Pro.
The outside is a "grip" sleeve, but the inside is SK78, and should be very similar (if not the same) as Liros D-Pro.
Same ease of splicing. The 5mm Magic Pro has a 3mm sk78 core, the 4mm a 2.5mm core.
Liros explained to me most of the breaking strength should come from the inner core (they added that the sleeve contributes), so I am (hopefully not irrationally!) treating it as a "lesser" d-pro. A 3mm D-Pro is rated about 950kg (the XTR at 1100+), so it should not be too crazy to expect at least 700kg from the 3mm SK78 core.
I am sucker for coloured dyneema

[alpaia]

Hi 3mm would be difficult to splice, maybe make trials first. Or you may not be able to keep the cover on the spliced eye. And the core alone may be less resistant than a kite line for equal diameter, also make sure the cover does not slide, creates an accordeon bunch and jam the release.

Also as edt said make sure the thicker line and knot runs smoothly through the line V stopper and the QR

The very long bury splice from evan seems like the most effective to me, avoiding above issues.

Having said that it is great to try new solutions, good luck, dont want to discourage you but just figure out potential issues to watch with release system.

[azoele]

Thanks Alpaia.

I did something stupid already with the release (it seemed to work on land… did not work when I needed it in the water) so am a bit particular now.
If I try the 3mm solution (all my 3mm dyneema is super easy to splice) I’ll go for at least 5mm ring if not more by the clamcleat, to ensure it slides freely.

As said, Liros gives breaking strength for the “whole package”, but confirmed to me the core is sk78 and it holds the higher load.
Am using it for the trim in the cleat, and was thinking of using it for the back leaders (core only)

[Herman]

Hi azoele, regarding Brummell with no stitching; your understanding that tails may start to come out if the line is fiddled such as forming the larks head is correct.

I recently trialed this with a set of = 300mm pigs in 2.5mm. In a set of 4 one of the tails came out enough to form a bump at the lock at the kite attachment end after about 15 sessions. The locks at the line end remained pristine. It is easy enough to hook the tail out and fully re-inset but I can do without the hassle. Furthermore, if you want to be sure of avoiding this loosening you need to sow the tail and if you are going to sow the tail why bother to Brummell? The line taken up by the Brummell better serves as extra bury which gives greater friction.

There are no hard and fast rules about this and a lot has to be based on sensible judgement. There is some data around and there are some good climbing vids on testing the lock and splice. The Marlow website also has a lot of good information.

Sadly I have never seen any info on needle damage to line fibre. Nor have I seen much on tail friction, the most critical factor imho. However with thin line I find it relatively easy to form a long bury and I use x72 plus taper. The taper is important.

Not seen any good vids on sowing. I just insert a needle length below the throat, put in 3 stitches just below the throat then 3 down and 3up, 3 down, 3 to lock and push the needle down the line to bury the end of the thread. This was based on some research but can’t remember the source. The stitches are firm enough to be neat but not pulled tight enough to crimp the fibres.

Of course you could just mark the line and inspect to use with simple bury without stitching…….. Also an older splice which has been fully loaded will have pressurised the tail to the extent where fibres are almost extruded into the gaps of the outer, these tend to stay put. However, I think a few stitches is the most practical solution for flying line and long pigs. Non of the above is gospel and is all just imho. Really we should all be proof testing etc. Tree branch and body weight can be useful!,

PS I use polyester sail thread, V30 for fly line, V69 for thicker pigs.

[edt]

So you don't have any issues with "prelines" being very thick?

Like having the first meter or so of the fronts and backs being 3mm dyneema?

no issues done it for years. I always run thick line for10m tho, then when I switch from thick to regular, I can lark's head and this makes it easy to replace it later. You can't lark's head at 1 or 2 meters because the safety flag out system needs to run for longer than that. You'll also need to possibly replaceyour line that goes from the V to the chicken loop so it won't slip through. Test it thoroughly in light wind first.

I think 3m is a little ridiculous you dont need it that thick. You don't want to make that line segment last 100 years when the rest of the control bar only lasts 10.

[azoele]

Hi azoele, regarding Brummell with no stitching; your understanding that tails may start to come out if the line is fiddled such as forming the larks head is correct.

I recently trialed this with a set of = 300mm pigs in 2.5mm. In a set of 4 one of the tails came out enough to form a bump at the lock at the kite attachment end after about 15 sessions. The locks at the line end remained pristine. It is easy enough to hook the tail out and fully re-inset but I can do without the hassle. Furthermore, if you want to be sure of avoiding this loosening you need to sow the tail and if you are going to sow the tail why bother to Brummell? The line taken up by the Brummell better serves as extra bury which gives greater friction.

Thank you Herman.
I have never noticed any "slippage" of the bury until now, but I am now alerted to the possibility.
Even the lines that were supplied with my carbon bars (race lines, for some reason) had brummel locks only, without stitching, and I'd hazard with about 50x diameters of bury, and did not show any sign of the bury coming out, after few tens of hours.

I usually never loaded lines (but for waterstart) as I only rode strapless foil.
But am now learning to ride with straps and trying my very first tiny jumps, so I'll be certain to inspect my lines (am not using those race lines anymore) thoroughly, and will try to splice & sew the next set I make.
The idea of a line snapping on me when up in the air (about 20 to 30 cm for now ) is quite terrifying.

The taper is important.

Not seen any good vids on sowing. I just insert a needle length below the throat, put in 3 stitches just below the throat then 3 down and 3up, 3 down, 3 to lock and push the needle down the line to bury the end of the thread. This was based on some research but can’t remember the source. The stitches are firm enough to be neat but not pulled tight enough to crimp the fibres.

Taper I do, as I read and watched videos showing lines break without it, so I try to take great care. (reassuring one thing I do ok )

Thank you for trying to explain sewing to me!
Although I from the wording – I suppose my english fails me – I didn't get too well your meaning.
I will look for videos, and try first with line remnants before doing it to my lines.

But, if I understood correctly: very nice idea to bury the thread into the splice.

Thank you.