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High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

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jatem
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby jatem » Tue Dec 07, 2021 11:23 pm

Nelis wrote:
Tue Dec 07, 2021 9:37 am
Thanks for all your thoughts so far! Main reason I asked is because fundamentally 'improved glide' is the great advantage that hydrofoiling brings in general, so why not have as much of it as you can? Having a broad comfortable speed range increases your wind range too I think.

The smaller HA wings that are coming out like this ART799 and the HA725 have 80-85cm span, and for surfing at least it seems they can be turned... Provided the skill is there, then you should be able to maintain line tension too?

https://www.instagram.com/p/CWHMTQLFiqo/

These sizes are not developed as HA race wings with small area that kiters are used to.
Alysum wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 2:13 pm
I will report back once I've kited with the new Axis ART799. I'm really looking forward to the extra speed and glide.
This is a good example of the wings I was referring to as well, let us know how it goes!
Foil preference totally depends on what kite you're using, how powered you want to be, what type of wind chop/swell you have at your local spot, and what you want from your foiling. I'm all about gliding and pumping the foil in bumps/waves/ramps of the ocean pump track, and using as little power from my peaks as possible. If you're using powerful inflatables, the requirements will be different because you're getting yanked around the whole time. My objectives are probably more like those of wingdings, but I haven't switched to wingding Yet because I like the bottom end range with a kite. My ideal session is getting towed into waves and then getting rid of all power (tow boogie when there's no wind).

The glide from the 999 allows you to ride through sections with minimal power from the kite when it's slowly falling from the sky (as only peaks can do). It can glide on the energy of small unbroken bumps, but also go fast enough to keep up with ocean swell. The challenge on windy days (25+ knots) can be reducing the kite power enough, because the 999 will go really fast with a lot of kite power, making it hard to slow down to sit in the pocket and turn. I'm looking forward to trying the 2.5m peak to ease off the power some more.

The minimum speed of the 999 is about 15kmhr, such as pumping sections when there's no power in the kite. It can also project with speed when pumping into fast swell, allowing you to catch up the next trough in front. I've taken the 999 over 50kmhr when well powered in flat conditions. The speed range is huge, but it's not relaxed and smooth like a race foil at speed, rather much more intense and twitchy. Everything else feels draggy and slow, or lacking in lift and glide. It's very responsive and picks up a lot of water texture/turbulence, which I don't mind because I can feel what it's doing and react to keep it in the water. I can poke 15cm of wing tip out of the water without any issues. It turns well at lower speeds, with an ultrashort fuse.

If it sounds like it has attributes that might suit your style, demo/borrow one. The smaller 799 should be good for kiting. I use the 999 for a range of activities.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby grigorib » Wed Dec 08, 2021 6:53 am

Higher aspect wings are not overhyped for kiting. Otherwise I would t have moved off 633 to 683s(679), then to 695, then to 800, then back a bit to lower aspect yet thicker 730.

Higher aspect wings usually have thinner profile and move faster. The roll stability of HA wings is a gift. Turning is not challenging until you ride something like Moses 1000.

The 633 top speed is kind of low at 25 mph and riding feels slow even on 679 now.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Peter_Frank » Wed Dec 08, 2021 7:03 am

True jatem, but being extremely light powered is not a factor in itself IMO.

Still personal choice whether high or low AR.

I also ride the smallest Peaks but prefer the lower AR wing simply because it is more lively.

And only use the similar sized higher AR wing for marginal conditions.

You have the focus on glide, I focus on turning.

8) Peter

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby papasmerf » Wed Dec 15, 2021 5:28 am

GregK wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 8:20 pm
SMJ wrote:
Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:12 pm
... I fly Lift wings most of the time, and I much prefer their Classic series wings to the high aspect wings...
Try Lift's new 150 Surf V2 - it's awesome !
i just switched over the to surf 150 v2 with a 32glide stab and it is fast and loose and glides darn good,,,, i really like it, great turning and glide. i love how lightweight the lift stuff is,,, it has to be the lightest weight foil set up out there.

i should say i just switched over to it from the other lift wing i had on my lift set up. i actually still think my north sonar 1150 is the most user friendly and fun wing ever and been using it for a year nonstop as my go to setup.

i have a moses w800 which i also love but it is too sharp on the ends for me to feel comfortable expecially when i am in my drysuit this time of year but just a great wing as well.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Flyboy » Wed Dec 15, 2021 8:37 pm

What I have observed (over decades) in the windsurfing/kitesurfing world is that there are always "new developments" which tend to initially go to the extreme & then back off somewhat ... until the next "new development" comes along. The design process seems to gain something from each new development. So, 3 or 4 years ago we saw the arrival of low aspect wings for kiting & then a move towards a "mean". Now there's a move to higher aspect wings again. I expect there will again be a return to a mean with some of the design lessons of higher aspect wings incorporated.

It's definitely nice to have more glide & efficiency, but for me it needs to be balanced against turning agility. As others have said, glide is probably more important for winging & prone surfing which are missing the power input that kites provide.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby norcom » Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:58 am

I've been sitting on my new PNL185 for a few weeks now. Just haven't had a chance to try it. Primarily kite with GL210 and on the lighter days GL240. Pretty much gave up on the original GoFoil wing quiver. No idea if I'll like this new wing but I didn't think I would ever trade the Iwa for the GL210 but it happened. Figured it was worth a shot to see what the HA hype's all about.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby bragnouff » Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:36 am

Wow norcom, you're kiting with those? The GL210 is my light wind winging option, the GL180 is my go-to wing option that essentially replaces the IWA, and the GL140 is the one I now use for kiting, and while very enjoyable, it still feels kind of big, so using the bigger sizes for kiting didn't even cross my mind. Not sure what kind of benefits I'd get, if any. (I'm typically using 8 and 5 Peaks, at 100kgs). Maybe if I was chasing the 6-8kts range with a bigger kite, that could be a different story and a oversized foil would come in handy. Similarly, I never really found any advantage in using the IWA instead of the Kai for kiting.

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby norcom » Fri Dec 17, 2021 4:25 pm

bragnouff wrote:
Fri Dec 17, 2021 9:36 am
Wow norcom, you're kiting with those? The GL210 is my light wind winging option, the GL180 is my go-to wing option that essentially replaces the IWA, and the GL140 is the one I now use for kiting, and while very enjoyable, it still feels kind of big, so using the bigger sizes for kiting didn't even cross my mind. Not sure what kind of benefits I'd get, if any. (I'm typically using 8 and 5 Peaks, at 100kgs). Maybe if I was chasing the 6-8kts range with a bigger kite, that could be a different story and a oversized foil would come in handy. Similarly, I never really found any advantage in using the IWA instead of the Kai for kiting.
Yes! Love the GL's and 6-8knts is quite fun on them. Biggest Peak4 I use now is 6m. The 8m/11m haven't been touched in over a year.
Just realized I bought the P180 wing and not the PNL185. I'm a bit scared to get the tipped wings as I'll run them into the ground 110% guaranteed! :lol:
I never liked the Nalu/Kai wings. The M280 has too much lift and isn't as turny as the rest. Only used the M280 a few times for kiting but it works fine. The GL240 is much more playful compared to M280.

Here deep in the panhandle the waves are so small and WEAK the Iwa/M200/M280/GL210/GL240 are about the only thing that give me a "feel" of a wave. If the waves get bigger there's usually wind but even that doesn't mean the waves are good. Personally I just have a lot more fun riding tiny waves on huge wings with small kites than cruising around and boosting on flat water. I would probably have a different view if my conditions were different. So it's definitely not for everyone. :D

Oh and I use the GL210/240 for winging but I need at least 12-14mph to get going with a 5m wing. Where as with the Peak4 6m I can start in around 7mph. Not everyones cup of tea but sometimes I just have to get out there!

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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby Alysum » Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:25 am

I've had one kite foil session on the Axis ART799 which has a ration of 9.05

First impressions, it has an extreme initial lift then it will stall quickly if you don't quickly level the foil. The initial lift is the quickest I've experienced on any foil and will surprise a lot of people, it's definitely for advanced riders. The 899 and 999 which I also ride (wing only) have a more gradual lift.

Once up, the 799 accelerates crazy fast and slices through the water, it's very efficient. I rode it with the 350p stab so the whole setup was quite a change from my usual 700/380 setup.

It turns well, but not as well as the 700 I felt. High aspect wings need a different turning technique too; you need to initiate the carve by pushing on the toes of the forward foot and put pressure on the back leg too. Difficult to explain, it feels like riding a plate which you have to skids into the turn.

Will the 799 replace my 700 ? Not necessarily, I enjoy how easy and forgiving the 700 is. If I want more speed and/or glide then I'll use the 799.
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Re: High Aspect wing hype not for kiting?

Postby surfbird » Mon Dec 20, 2021 11:44 pm

Alysum wrote:
Sun Dec 19, 2021 11:25 am
I've had one kite foil session on the Axis ART799 which has a ration of 9.05

First impressions, it has an extreme initial lift then it will stall quickly if you don't quickly level the foil. The initial lift is the quickest I've experienced on any foil and will surprise a lot of people, it's definitely for advanced riders. The 899 and 999 which I also ride (wing only) have a more gradual lift.

Once up, the 799 accelerates crazy fast and slices through the water, it's very efficient. I rode it with the 350p stab so the whole setup was quite a change from my usual 700/380 setup.

It turns well, but not as well as the 700 I felt. High aspect wings need a different turning technique too; you need to initiate the carve by pushing on the toes of the forward foot and put pressure on the back leg too. Difficult to explain, it feels like riding a plate which you have to skids into the turn.

Will the 799 replace my 700 ? Not necessarily, I enjoy how easy and forgiving the 700 is. If I want more speed and/or glide then I'll use the 799.
But it's kiteable you would say?
When you say "extreme initial lift" do you mean you have to change weight from backfoot to frontfoot very quick when it starts flying? Or do you need a lot of front foot pressure while riding?

I'm looking for a wing that I can use riding unbroken swell, most wings have a hard time to keep up with the speed.

How long mast do you use?

Thanks


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