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Foiling downwind

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Foil
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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby Foil » Tue Mar 09, 2021 4:35 am

cglazier wrote:
Thu Aug 28, 2014 4:25 pm
Keep your kite powered and lean back against it. Keep your kite low (45 degrees or lower).
Start by just heading slightly downwind and then just turn more downwind but always keep power in the kite and lean back against it. If you point too far downwind you will lose power so head up a bit.

If you find yourself going so fast that you get scared then you are doing it right. :D

:wink: CG
love that statement! so true as well, going fast downwind Is the best high on the water for me, my fastest gps speeds are now deep hard and fast downwind, my 101 mast helps a lot as I need to keep downlooping the kite into fast carves which makes the heart rate jump up every time I take the kite through the window at full speed and have the kite pass directly in front of me low down as I dare and fast as i can, never backing off anymore, keeping the kite in my Peripheral vision is so important to maintaining kite position as it must never get behind me as that would be one horrible crash. and kite tumble from hell.
yesterday my speed exceeded the top speed speed possible on the 633 wing set, peaking at 54kmph on some long fast runs, but that 29.8 knts was helped by a tidal flow in the direction I was going, but I still claim it as my best 633 speed to date, and my powerful downloops across the flat water just pushed me faster on the power peaks.
and at that silly speed the ride was so smooth, a crash would have been unthinkable at high speed as your only going to get flipped through the air in the worst possible way, so crash jacket helps with head protection.

rnelias
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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby rnelias » Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:56 pm

I've been learning hydrofoil in the last couple of months and also training how to go downwind efficiently. As you can see on this video, sometimes I loose inertia and leave the board touch the water. Sometimes the foil speed up and is a little bit scary to keep control without the kite's support but we just need to change direction to recover line tension and control.


Foil
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Local Beach: New Brighton- nr Liverpool. Open sea with big low tide lagoon
Favorite Beaches: New Brighton, Rhosneigr, Fleetwood, Newbrough
lake Como (Italy)
Style: improving kite foiler since 2017
Gear: Groove Skates 110 and 120 custom graphics and volume 2021 editions
101cm SABMoses wood core mast
Moses- 633/483 on 701 fuse
Moses- 718 /421 on the smaller lighter kite fuse
Ozone Hyperlink V1 ultra light 5mtr
Ozone V2 Hyperlink 7mtr + 9mtr
Ozone Chrono V4 foil kite 11mtr, red
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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby Foil » Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:21 am

rnelias wrote:
Thu Mar 11, 2021 2:56 pm
I've been learning hydrofoil in the last couple of months and also training how to go downwind efficiently. As you can see on this video, sometimes I loose inertia and leave the board touch the water. Sometimes the foil speed up and is a little bit scary to keep control without the kite's support but we just need to change direction to recover line tension and control.

blimey yes that vid had me nervous just watching,
I now never hold the kite straight downwind, so easy to end up dipping in the kite and running over and through your lines, the worst kind of foil crash you can have apart from doing the same on wave sets,
the memory of such a bad situation make me go no where near what you show in your vid, much more fun and safer to keep the kite moving and looping both ways to gain power, and S bend the board downwind all the time feeling for more drive from the kite and never letting the lines go soft, so easy to get it wrong if you get distracted, just build up more speed for stability, its great training for a epic session on the waves, flying fast downwind across the top most point of a wave peak is just one of the best feelings.
Conditions are hard to find for this, but the memory of it when it happens lasts a long time

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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby rnelias » Fri Mar 12, 2021 12:21 pm

Foil wrote:
Fri Mar 12, 2021 8:21 am

blimey yes that vid had me nervous just watching,
I now never hold the kite straight downwind, so easy to end up dipping in the kite and running over and through your lines, the worst kind of foil crash you can have apart from doing the same on wave sets,
the memory of such a bad situation make me go no where near what you show in your vid, much more fun and safer to keep the kite moving and looping both ways to gain power, and S bend the board downwind all the time feeling for more drive from the kite and never letting the lines go soft, so easy to get it wrong if you get distracted, just build up more speed for stability, its great training for a epic session on the waves, flying fast downwind across the top most point of a wave peak is just one of the best feelings.
Conditions are hard to find for this, but the memory of it when it happens lasts a long time
In fact, as i'm learning, i've already had a bunch of crashes 😂😂😂 and developed some muscle memory in how to get rid off the board, however, my only kites that i've used to learn were Rebels, the worst kite for drift you could imagine. On this vid was my second ride using the Soul. Kitefoils are so much easy to drift. They're very light and just search the edge of the wind window when lines get slack. It's not that easy to crash them on water and they don't like to be worked as LEI kites. Too slow for a newbie risk kiteloops when he's more concerned with the board.

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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby Flyboy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:34 am

I agree with Foil: why just run straight down wind like that? It's an inherently unstable position (even with a small sailboat). If you're wanting to go downwind I would always take the opportunity to gybe, or at least do S curves to enjoy the carving sensation.

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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby Regis-de-giens » Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:42 am

Flyboy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:34 am
I agree with Foil: why just run straight down wind like that? It's an inherently unstable position (even with a small sailboat). If you're wanting to go downwind I would always take the opportunity to gybe, or at least do S curves to enjoy the carving sensation.
My english is a bit limited , so not sure to what you refer, but if you refer to my video pure downwind, I should have precise something: I consider this pure downwind direction (with kite backstalled in front of you, waves in exact direction) like a play rather than an efficient angle in term of negative vmg or comfort or easiness ; this trick is not really unsusefull in real, however , this is soooooo enjoyable to play with this instable equilibrium of the kite backstage point ; it is impacted by your speed variations, so you always sheet-in and out to get it in this position ; no rest ; and the line tensions that vary a lot between your kite stable or your kite starting to come up to zenith ... so a constant need to balance your body (unloaded by low kite tensions) and the kite wanting to go up or down like when you land a foilkite on the ground ;

And the silence is so pure ; other riders at 90 degree are so "surprised" to have this unusual configuration of a kite low on the water but parallel , crossing 90 degree their ride (you need to be careful).

Next time I'll try to combine with my two feets in parallel of the ride direction

rnelias
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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby rnelias » Sat Mar 13, 2021 3:28 pm

There's something very important to be considered here: the kite.

Me and Regis were using RAM kites. Although the S curvesi might result in a more efficient downwind ride, these kites can be backstalled and they're much better drifters than LEI kites. I don't own a Peak4 myself but I'm sure you can go straight line downwind with a single skin kite withou having to worry about slack lines or the kite failling from the sky. These kites are so light that they just "turn off" when you leave them free to fly. They'll naturally hunt the edge of the wind window and stay there until you ask for some pull.

I've learned to hydrofoil with my 9 and 12m Rebels. 5 structs kites (Switchblade, XR, Rebel, Lift, etc...) are the worst kites you could magine to foil downwind. For theses kites, you don't have much alternatives besides making the S curves or use kiteloops to keep line tension.

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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby Peter_Frank » Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:23 pm

It is interesting, having"re-seen" this almost 7 year old thread now.

Firstly I would say, that riding deep downwind when you are a beginner, is MUCH harder.
As you stand very upright, and have no line tenstion to lean against - but it will come in time, practice practice practice and suddenly you are there.


To the original topic and the responses:

Things have changed hugely in many respects, since then, and there are (IMO) two very different ways to ride nowadays.

Riding downwind at high speed, kite low, and leaning back from the kite power (loaded lines) - is the easy way in terms of balance, but the risky way if you pop the wing out (kite can go in the drink and board up in the lines), but happens rarely especially if strapped where you can survive a small ventilation often.

So, racers or those liking this way, ride like this, the fastest way downwind (highest VMG), and quite easy, apart from the risk of a ventilation crash.

Then today it is very different, as most non-racers ride really big wings now, and small drifting kites.
Meaning, riding even deeper downwind, preferable on a small wave or even the small wind chops, and keeping the kite high, "floating" so to speak, is almost the opposite way.
We are many who like this style now, as you have almost no line tension, meaning you can "surf" with or without waves, on your hydrofoil standing upright, which is great (for me and those liking this style)

Or you can fly the kite high, and downloop it around, while you carve back and fourth, going deep downwind, even without waves :D

You dont have to pay much attention when your kite is high, and even if you crash ventilating, or on a waveface - the kite is high and wont drop.
As if you drop the kite, you migh have to swim ashore, or drift, as relaunching is often not possible.

These two very opposite styles are both exciting and fun, but has been even more polarised now, where some ride with 18 to 21 m2 narrow racekites, and other ride drifing kites 5 m2, in the very same wind.

7 years ago there wasnt that much difference, only subtle compared to now :rollgrin:

8) Peter

PS: Going dead downwind with a foil kite is of course not efficient, but can be really fun just to "do and try".
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Re: Foiling downwind

Postby Flyboy » Sat Mar 13, 2021 7:46 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 9:42 am
Flyboy wrote:
Sat Mar 13, 2021 5:34 am
I agree with Foil: why just run straight down wind like that? It's an inherently unstable position (even with a small sailboat). If you're wanting to go downwind I would always take the opportunity to gybe, or at least do S curves to enjoy the carving sensation.
My english is a bit limited , so not sure to what you refer, but if you refer to my video pure downwind, I should have precise something: I consider this pure downwind direction (with kite backstalled in front of you, waves in exact direction) like a play rather than an efficient angle in term of negative vmg or comfort or easiness ; this trick is not really unsusefull in real, however , this is soooooo enjoyable to play with this instable equilibrium of the kite backstage point ; it is impacted by your speed variations, so you always sheet-in and out to get it in this position ; no rest ; and the line tensions that vary a lot between your kite stable or your kite starting to come up to zenith ... so a constant need to balance your body (unloaded by low kite tensions) and the kite wanting to go up or down like when you land a foilkite on the ground ;

And the silence is so pure ; other riders at 90 degree are so "surprised" to have this unusual configuration of a kite low on the water but parallel , crossing 90 degree their ride (you need to be careful).

Next time I'll try to combine with my two feets in parallel of the ride direction
I wasn't addressing what you were doing in your video - I was addressing rnelias. What you are doing is quite tricky - it requires very precise control of the kite trim. My basic point is: normally running downwind is more fun when you are carving downwind, either gybing, or S turning. It still requires a degree of sensitivity to the kite trim as you tend to be going with very little tension in the lines.
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