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how small can a front wing get.

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windfreak74
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how small can a front wing get.

Postby windfreak74 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 3:48 pm

take in account im fairly new at this.
a year into foiling and building.
this question is on my mind.
how small can a front wing area be?
i understand there is a relation between front wing area ,AR, and speed.
but still this is bugging me.
Just saw the span for the speed/jump wing from zeeko and the area is roughly 450 -480cm2.
this is my guestimate from the picture.
this reminds me of the video from horue not using a rear stab.
what is the minimun total area of foil you have experimented with?

can you guys share the areas in cms2 you have tried?
Pedro

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby revhed » Thu Feb 12, 2015 4:18 pm

W F,
Great question.
I was lucky enough to get to fly a 400 cm2 F wing with a full high mod T bar last summer.
The wind was perfect and so was the KBHF!
Off course you had to get up to a faster take off speed but once up WOW talk about limited H20 friction.
BUT,
Turns needed to be made at faster speed and were sensitive, which seems normal.
I was also unable to do most of what I can with my well flown Lower A R 600cm2.
As it was so fun I have the carbon cut for my own 400cm2 for next season.
I am pretty sure Delta has even gone smaller , something like 380 if memory serves me.
Have a look or contact them for more info.
R H

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Feb 12, 2015 8:20 pm

I dont think there is a "minimum" as such - as if the mast and fuselage is low drag, you can ride really fast, starting at a higher speed of course, with a really really small wing (and stabilizer, much less area needed for a smaller wing at high speeds)

But, there is a but - namely the fact that you go lousy upwind, compared - and making tacks/jibes are not just a tad more difficult, but a LOT more difficult.
On the other hand, with experience you might get there, and find it "normal" :thumb:

One good thing though, the low end is not changed much really, as a faster smaller wing, can be pushed into hydrofoiling (looping and/or pumping the board) - and when up, the higher speed makes the wing lift more, and the kite pull more.

My small wing is a bit less than 450cm2, but a high speed profile (thin and low cambered)

The lift (profile) is just as important, as you can have a wing half the size, if twice the lift (more cambered).

I like the idea of a really small wing, to go extremely fast, and be able to jump insanely high, and not worry about landings destroying the connection, like on bigger wings :naughty:

But you can not have it all in one wing, no matter how much we want that :roll:

8) PF

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby windfreak74 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 9:54 pm

Hello Peter,
Great information!
I was imagining the same about acelaration and absurd jumps with regular wind.
Im considering on building a bigger fuselage body with smaller wings.
i guess this way you can get greater aceleration and wild jumps and forgetting about DiY gear failure.
That about sums it up.
wing fuselage all in one like newind foilfish.
can anyone comment on the skin friction does it infuence much?
How much can a fuselage contribute to lift?
Pedro

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby antonell0 » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:31 pm

The Spotz 2 freeride front wing is 386 cm2 according to the producer, and it definitively needs speed to lift. But it is fun, although air tacks & air jibes are virtually impossible for the average Joe.

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby edt » Thu Feb 12, 2015 10:52 pm

Peter_Frank wrote: I like the idea of a really small wing, to go extremely fast, and be able to jump insanely high, and not worry about landings destroying the connection, like on bigger wings :naughty:

But you can not have it all in one wing, no matter how much we want that :roll:

8) PF
Peter I am with you on the little wings. Hope to get into the hydrofoil biz this year. Do you have a specific manufacturer in mind? Tks.

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby Peter_Frank » Fri Feb 13, 2015 7:40 am

Using Zeeko wings right now, and have modified one low camber to a really small size :thumb:

Historically it seems Spotz has always been smallish, but also very cambered as opposed to the bigger area but low drag Sword profile - but they are race machines and not what we are talking about here I assume.

I dont know who makes speed/jump wings (small size and fast camber) now, but it seems Zeeko does here from 2015 - but maybe others do too ?

8) PF

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby davesails7 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 3:23 pm

You are also limited by cavitation. More lift from a smaller wing by going faster means lower pressure on the wing and causes cavitaion.

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby edt » Fri Feb 13, 2015 4:39 pm

if you have cavitation or ventilation problems it is a flaw in the design. For instance Hering propellers can go above 100 knots without cavitation problems.

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Re: how small can a front wing get.

Postby davesails7 » Fri Feb 13, 2015 8:02 pm

edt wrote:if you have cavitation or ventilation problems it is a flaw in the design. For instance Hering propellers can go above 100 knots without cavitation problems.
Cavitaion isn't caused by speed, it's caused by low pressure. If you are getting the same lift out of a smaller wing, you're going to have lower pressure on the top of the foil. So you can't just go smaller and smaller, at some point you're asking too much of too small of an area, pressure will be too low and you get cavitation.


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