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Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

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herbert
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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby herbert » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:19 am

Those who fly Clouds a lot tell me that they go upwind well. Really well. That has been my experience. I don't have the same other kites and years of experience that Point Omega has, but have come to the same conclusion. I flew the Cloud back to back a bunch with my RRD Vision and Naish Cult and I can certainly get upwind a bit more with the Cloud. I don't know why. I don't know if the kite moves itself upwind more or it has something to do with flying faster due to the thin leading edge. I just can.

I have lent the kite to dozens of riders. It is a different enough kite that it takes time getting used to. Some seem to do so in one session...and some require a dozen. I haven't been able to relate in necessarily to experience. Sometimes the most experienced kiter has so many habits for other kites that it takes him longer to get it....to optimize it...than with a new kiter. It doesn't seem predictable. Like getting on a moderately different board.

There seems to be so much technique involved in everything about kiting...I realize I cannot fairly comment on some equipment until I have used it 10 or 20 times to minimize to operator effect. When I switched from surfboard to foilboard...I would have thought the foil was funky for quite a while...but I know it was me that was funky.

The Clouds are good for me on the foilboard. Major depower is helpful. Super fast turning to keep up with foil turning is helpful. Super drift when going downwind is helpful. That is my experience after 50 or 60 sessions. Cannot comment on the Storm kites.

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby BWD » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:33 am

To me it seems, compared to classic c and bridled LEIs, the Cloud likes to fly a little higher in the window when you are going upwind. Try that maybe?

I am curious about the storm too but haven't seen one yet.
I would really like to see a cloud like kite but with a bit higher AR tho I am very happy how my clouds fly, just curious. The shape of the storm tho plus the type of bridle I am not so sure about.
Still, I would love to try it to see what it's really like...

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby ronnie » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:31 am

Latest video from Horue.

Illustrates that top riders choose different foils and kites depending on what they want to do.


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Hunqi
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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby Hunqi » Sun Oct 04, 2015 5:40 pm

Tone wrote:
davesails7 wrote:I had the exact same experience seabizzle. Tried out a 17m cloud c1 on my Slingshot SP . It was tough to go upwind even though I had been staying upwind on 14m rebel. I had been letting the bar out in gusts to push it forward in the window but it would actually drift back in the window. Maybe just takes some retraining.

Also noted riding alongside my buddy that the 14m rebel and 17m cloud looked to have the same projected area.

Shouldn't be a problem staying upwind on a hydrofoil though.
These kites are so fat and hang back so far in the wind, they give the illusion of being powered when in fact all they do is pull you downwind. Terrible kites for foils in my opinion.
They're terrible not only for foils but for recreational kiting also.
I don't understand why these people making up and buy into their crap performance wise,
when all the struts are missing and feeling the drag nothing else.

H

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby BWD » Sun Oct 04, 2015 8:00 pm

You guys not going upwind with the cloud are leaning back too much or flying it too low in the window or something. Perhaps tiny boards?

A flysurfer race foil or edge will obviously beat it upwind. I've had a cloud since the beginning and no problems going upwind. But yes the flysurfers point higher -when not adjusting their tangles on the beach. I find the clouds on par with normal all round leis for upwind, and vastly better for drift, waves and staying aloft in 6-10kts.
For freestyle boost and wake you still want a C - and to race, a race kite. :)

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby PointOmega » Sun Oct 04, 2015 11:29 pm

I am confused by all the nonspecific hating. I was out on my 7m cloud c2 today, on a small tomo vanguard. No issues pointing upwind, in fact ended up as usual far upwind of everyone. I was on a 7, the other riders were on 11s and a few 9s. I was fully powered and weigh 85 kilos, not light. The little kite absolutely crushed it, beastly power, turned on a dime, rocketed upwind. Do these crotics have much experience on real current generation clouds? I dont recognize the kite described in the negative posts. Weird.

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby Starsky » Mon Oct 05, 2015 12:16 am

So far it sounds like those that rave about them own them, and those that rail against them haven't.

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby stevet25 » Fri Nov 13, 2015 9:54 pm

Hi - as the OP thanks for all your responses - most enlightening.

After 13 odd years of kiting, hydrofoils and strutless kites have really rekindled my passion this year. Now I can go some way to answering my own original question, as I now have both brands in the van. Sylvain at Storm was helpful and I took the plunge and bought a 5 and 9 Voyager 2. (I should also mention at this point that Greg BRM is brilliant at answering queries). Have now had a number of sessions on the 5 and a couple on the 9 - I could not be more delighted. The 5 not only makes a superb foiling kite but also, just like the Clouds, a great wave kite - responsive, great drift, stays aloft in marginal airs, downloops with confidence, great wind range and easy to turn off the power when required. So how do the two compare?

-the C2 Clouds weigh slightly less, but have a lighter build mainly in the leading edge (eg Voyager 5m 1.6kg, C2 7m 1.6kg, V2 9m 2.1kg) - but both pack up tiny and you can guarantee that anyone who lands your kite will tell you that your kite weighs nothing
- C2 very simple bridle direct attachment, 4 pulley bridle on Voyager, with a linkage between front and rear, presumably to aid reverse launching (a great feature of the Voyagers, though not tested it in a combat situation yet)
-Voyagers self drift launch on the beach more readily
-both work well tethered launch
-both drift wonderfully and stay aloft in marginal airs
-both highly responsive and light on the bar (Voyagers probably lighter less direct feel, and also more on/off feel which I really like, but is a preference thing)
-both enable me to go a size smaller than strutted kite
-both have a great wind range (possibly wider on the Voyager due to bridling?)
-both inspire confidence
-if you live in Europe Voyagers much cheaper (especially in the smaller sizes, as the Clouds are the same price for a 4 or a 17 at the moment!!)
-just to give an idea -the V2 5m works for me on a foil from about 13 knots, 17 on a surfboard, the C2 7m works from 9 knots on the foil, 13 on surfboard, but then I am only 65kg
-What I really need is a full quiver of both to do full back to back test (Sylvain/Greg?)!!

Its early days, but give me a quiver of either and i would be a happy bunny as they seem to suit my freeride foiling and strapless surfboarding niche very nicely indeed. They are easy and fun.

The Voyager has some knot options on bridle which I have not investigated yet - has anyone else tried these out?

Still interested in what others have to think, though maybe the naysayers and strutless deniers could take their negativity to another thread :D

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby Famus » Fri Nov 13, 2015 11:05 pm

The bar pressure is lighter on the outer knots and higher on the inner knots. Without the link line between Front and back the turning pressure at the bar is higher. I wished there where a small manual. The drift is awsum. I dont feel to choose the size 1meter smaller.

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Re: Strutless gems - BRM clouds compared to Storm Voyager?

Postby mig27 » Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:24 pm

I have some 3 strutted wavekites here (Peter Lynn swells) in 10,5m and 8,0m, which are quite light weight.
The 10,5m is powerful enough to be my biggest kite.
But in 7/8 knots it is very difficult to keep it above you, let alone do a waterstart.

What's the minimum wind speed for a Cloud and a Storm?
Still considering to step over to a 11/12m foil kite for the low-end


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