2014 MHL Lift - feedback on race wings vs freeride wings?

[mikesids]

Hi,
I have been foiling for a few months now ( 2014 MHL Lift with freeride wings) , have some questions. I am 6'2 and weigh 80kg, have used kites from 14m down to 7m with the foil so far. I kite in NZ.

I was out during the last weekend on an 8m , another guy was out on a 7m edge on his Spotz 2 board and foil - he is a freerider with more experience than me , but not a racer. While travelling off the wind I noticed that my board was rising and falling quite a bit whereas the other guy was smoking along far faster than me but able to maintain a very stable foiling height at this higher speed.

My questions are:

- in higher wind strengths do you need less wing area / lift? ie was my board potentially "over-winged"
- can anyone who has used both please comment on the relative speed vs stability of the MHL freeride wings vs the MHL race wings - preferably the 2014 versions?

Am a bit bummed that the 2015 MHL wings won't fit my 2014 fuselage to be honest so am left to consider scouring around for 2014 higher aspect wings - just want to get an idea of what the tradeoffs might be. My ultimate aim is to achieve a similar outcome to what I saw in the weekend - higher speed with more stability , esp when the wind is up. I know the Spotz is a premium race foil , but how close could I realistically get with a higher aspect set of wings for my MHL set up?

If we can keep the feedback constructive that would be great , rather than just slagging off what I am riding !! ( It would be a lot cheaper to upgrade the wingset ideally rather than splash out on a whole new setup).

Thanks in advance

Mike

[Peter_Frank]

Yes, you use a smaller wing in more wind, most often.

Yes, bigger (or more cambered) wings tends not to run as smooth at high speed as smaller and/or faster wings.

Eventhough "faster" wings ride faster, thus more lift - they still require A LOT more kitepower, meaning much bigger kites are needed for going down and especially upwind, compared to slower wings.

So you can ride in light wind with a fast wing yes, because of the speed and apparent wind, but not pointing very high - unless you take a much bigger kite.

With the bigger/more lifting wings, you can ride upwind at amazing angles in light wind, with a small kite


Ups and downs and one of the reasons you could have several wings


Furthermore, dont forget the trim of the rear stabilizer is crucial for how stable a bigger/lifting wing is at high speed.
And as many lifting wings are aimed for beginners, the stabilizer is often trimmed "up" (lower AOA) so easier for beginners - but as soon as you can ride faster you will dislike this setting.
So if trimming "down" you can ride easier and more neutral at speed downwind, with a lifting wing.

Finally, footstrap setting and trim is essential too for a smooth ride of course, and changes if you change the wing.

PF

[davesails7]

My understamding is that the newer race foils feel much more locked in and stable at speed than the older ones did. I went from and older race foil with straight wings to the spotz 2 and the spotz 2 is much more controllable at speed. Sword 2 is even more stable at speed.

I get the impression that the 2014 MHL race wings were not especially good. I've never ridden it myself though.

In the US, the leftover Spotz 2s direct from spotz is crazy cheap compared to other fpils on the market. You can even get a spotz 3 for much less than a new MHL. If you can find a great deal on some used MHL race wings it might be worth it, but otherwise I think you would be better off with one of the newer race foils at not much cost after selling the MHL

[Mossy 757]

It's very possible to "overfoil" compared to a race wing at high speeds, essentially where your weight cannot push down the foil enough to prevent it from porpoising.

The Sword 2 comes with 2 size wings, and the biggest complaint I've heard about the bigger wing is that it overfoils like crazy down wind in anything over 12 kts with most kites.

[Peter_Frank]

It's very possible to "overfoil" compared to a race wing at high speeds, essentially where your weight cannot push down the foil enough to prevent it from porpoising.

The Sword 2 comes with 2 size wings, and the biggest complaint I've heard about the bigger wing is that it overfoils like crazy down wind in anything over 12 kts with most kites.

Just trim the mf.. down and problem solved

I've never had any of mine do that, no matter what size - if trimmed correctly.

IMO it is not the wing that is the problem really

PF

[Mossy 757]

It's very possible to "overfoil" compared to a race wing at high speeds, essentially where your weight cannot push down the foil enough to prevent it from porpoising.

The Sword 2 comes with 2 size wings, and the biggest complaint I've heard about the bigger wing is that it overfoils like crazy down wind in anything over 12 kts with most kites.

Just trim the mf.. down and problem solved

I've never had any of mine do that, no matter what size - if trimmed correctly.

IMO it is not the wing that is the problem really

PF

So the 1 time I've actually seen the larger Sword 2 wing in person, the owner had done exactly that...cut off the wing tips with a hack saw. I don't think most foils should be trimmed by hand unless you feel really comfortable repairing carbon fiber, but in this case it's the cheaper option versus buying their smaller wing.

I think that rationale only makes sense for racing where you're taking the biggest kite you can for the wind conditions. If you're free riding and the foil is overpowered, just take a smaller kite.

[Starsky]

Um, I think he meant trim as in change the angle of the rear wing by a degree, not hack saw your main wing!

[Peter_Frank]

Ha haa, funny how language can trick you sometimes

I did not mean to cut the wing down, but to trim the stabilizer down (which means trim it to a higher aoa)

PF

Oops, sorry, did not see you answered Starsky, I am on a mobile...

[Mossy 757]

haha, yeah, we were on totally different wavelengths. English is fun...

Lifting surface size/shape/surface area/AOA all have an effect, but you can only trim your lifting surfaces to a certain point before the drag is creating a negative ROI. Kiting is just a huge dynamic equilibrium equation, and foiling only makes things more difficult.

I think the OP's question was, "why doesn't my freeride foil go as fast/stable downwind as my buddy's race foil?"

So there's 2 answers to that: Adjust the AOA of your lifting surfaces to optimize for high speed stability or get a setup that is designed to go faster off the wind but will compromise in slower speed handling. For some, that means buying a new foil/stab.

In the case of my buddy with the larger Sword 2 wing, it involved a hack saw and some epoxy...

[Slyde]

Hi Mike, Glenn here, that was me on the spotz. You should try it sometime and then you'll see it's all trade offs. I agree with what has been said but Peter is incorrect about needing way more power for the speed wings. They generate so much speed that they need smaller kites, that why I was on a 7 and you were on an 8. Sure, the racers will hold onto as much rag as they can.
fwiw you looked pretty stable to me. I was working hard for that speed and the trade off is I'm still crap at the corners after a year whereas with a slower lower aspect foil I might have progressed that a bit faster.