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How to get up foiling in low wind

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PullStrings
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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby PullStrings » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:16 pm

pikovsg wrote:On a recent foil session I had a game changer moment. I realized that a very short mast, 15 inches, can get you going in way lower wind than a normal size mast. 2 miles less, possibly even more. Combine that with a big floating board and a 12m Concept Air Pulsion and you're foiling in 5 mile wind.
Everything you just wrote makes no sense

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby abel » Thu Nov 03, 2016 8:06 am

Regis-de-giens wrote:Indeed , Ketos "Easy Light Wind" is a bit more than 800 cm2 ; This is the one I use for marginal winds or offshore winds. F-one has also just launched an equivalent size of wing. Very efficient to foil-up sooner, hence reach the planning in lower wind
What needs a wing for offshore wind?

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:12 pm

For offshore winds ( specially now in winter) I prefer using my large Ketos wing rather the wave wing because :
- the wind range is higher, or say it differently, the upwind ability to come back to start point occurs on larger wind range ; so it prevents from wind decreases or lulls during the ride that could be very painful if I struggle to go upwind to come back to shore
- upwind angle and efficiency is better as you can ride slower upwind without sinking
- More generally ( same for large TT), variable winds are easier to handle with a bigger wing and smaller kite.

Personally I do not think that the length of mast would change a lot on low end. Maybe on pumping efficiency with the foil board nose up and down for excellent riders (thanks to a gain in agility) but I doubt.
Last edited by Regis-de-giens on Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby Bille » Thu Nov 03, 2016 1:58 pm

PullStrings wrote:
pikovsg wrote:On a recent foil session I had a game changer moment.

I realized that a very short mast, 15 inches, can get you going in way lower wind than a normal size mast.

2 miles less, possibly even more.

...
Everything you just wrote makes no sense
I'm a bit buzzed ; it made sense to me ! :D

Reading on the hydrofoil forum ; bunch of people say they like the
shorter Mast . Just speculating here ; but does a short Mast, have anything to do with
a lower CG to the wing , and a better sense of balance ?

My brain just filled in, (wind) on this one :

2 miles less , ((wind)), possibly even more.
Regis-de-giens wrote:Indeed , Ketos "Easy Light Wind" is a bit more than 800 cm2 ; This is the one I use for marginal winds or offshore winds.
...
DANG --- they do GOOD work !! :thumb:

Is this the Easy Light Wind wing ?

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Nov 03, 2016 4:57 pm

Yes it is Bille :thumb:

It has saved many sessions for me - both in marginal winds of course, but also if the wind drops then I change to this "Easy" light wind Ketos wing and can ride even with a ridicoulously small kite (instead of rigging up), and can ride on if the wind returns, which I would not be able to pleasantly if I had rigged a bigger kite :roll:

Sometimes I use my short (83cm) mast and the big wing, if low wind and I have to foil all the time in order not to hit the bottom - we have a few spots where it takes forever to get out deep, and you dont wanna swim that far if the wind suddenly dies totally :wink:
And in marginal onshore conditions, this setup is perfect :naughty:

Generally I dislike shorter masts, I find no advantages at all when riding - but sometimes they are the only choice because of the seabed/conditions, so if you are "hungry" you will make many compromises to get out foiling :roll: :rollgrin:

8) Peter

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby PullStrings » Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:47 pm

Bille wrote: I'm a bit buzzed ; it made sense to me ! :D
Yeah i hear you....that would be the only way :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer: to make sense of it

But come on....no way a 38 cm mast gets you going in 2 miles an hour less than using a 83 cm or taller mast

Obviously he can't tell 5 mph from 8 mph of wind with his 12 sqm ram air

In 5 mph he could not get going at all with his gear

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby pikovsg » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:19 pm

I'll just smile and keep kiting in, Pullstrings. You keep rocking in that chair.

Folks, the reason why 15" mast works well in low wind is not because it gets on plane any faster than a longer mast. It's simply because you can start in knee-deep water. This gives you solid ground and resistance when starting to loop the kite. In deep water you'll often drift with the kite and lose the power on the stroke. May even drop the kite. In winds that low, that seems to make a hell of a lot of difference. Also, in on shore winds you can start deeper, and still have a lot more ground clearance when getting on foil while being sent to shore. You just need that first loop to get on foil, if you can turn w/o falling for the rest of the session, you can ride for hours.

Also not a big of riding on short masts, but when it's below 7 mile mark, shorts mast can save a session.

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby coleman » Thu Nov 03, 2016 11:55 pm

pikovsg wrote:I'll just smile and keep kiting in, Pullstrings. You keep rocking in that chair.

Folks, the reason why 15" mast works well in low wind is not because it gets on plane any faster than a longer mast. It's simply because you can start in knee-deep water. This gives you solid ground and resistance when starting to loop the kite. In deep water you'll often drift with the kite and lose the power on the stroke.

.
solid ground when starting to loop the kite? so am i to assume you are digging the bottom of the foil into ground before starting?

very confused here actually

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby pikovsg » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:28 am

Right, I didn't quite phrase it right. Let's try again.

So. If your foil mast is a typical 35-40" and you're trying to waterstart, the water needs to be deep enough so your feet don't touch the ground. So you end up sending the kite while floating in the direction of the kite. In side/offshore winds sending the kite pulls you into out into deeper water. If you can't launch, you just keep drifting. In onshore winds, the wind sends you straight back and you end up scuffing the foil over sand w/o enough space to properly dig in and get up on the foil.

Normally, all this is standard stuff and part of kiting. But in marginal winds, one wrong stroke or one weak stroke can drop your kite or send you drifting towards the kite while sending it back and forth, which loses a lot of kite power. From that point on, it's usually a losing battle. Particularly, if you have a relatively heavy or slower-turning kite.

But. If you start with the 15" mast, you are standing on solid ground in knee deep water and can resist the pull of the kite. This allows you to build up apparent wind in the foil kite, which forces much more resistance into the kite than while floating. After one or two strokes, the kite will have enough momentum for you to quickly get in the strap and get up on foil. Also, with an LEI or a foil, standing on solid ground allows for faster kite arcs as you swing the kite with more resistance. All this gives you just enough of an advantage to get more power out of the kite on the initial strokes.

Additionally, when launching in shallow you can always walk back and start again. This saves a ton of time in marginal conditions.

And lastly, if your kite falls and you're standing on solid ground, it's much easier to relaunch.

That's my case for 15-24" masts. It really works, especially with foil kites like Pulsion, R1, Lotus, etc.

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Re: How to get up foiling in low wind

Postby Regis-de-giens » Fri Nov 04, 2016 8:48 am

Ah ok I understand your point now and I was also doing this with TT board in light winds; indeed, if it is a way to always touch the seabed , then I agree in general.

BUT ...(You know I like the "but" to launch technical discussions :jump: ) Did you try the Uploop then downloop waterstart technics ? I feel that when you force yourself to keep all the foil and yourself in the water during the first 360 degree uploop of the kite, you reach approximatelly the same result : because even if you get little worse tension during the first 180 degree (up to phase when the kite going toward the see surface, you still have l very light drift, very limited if you "make you heavy in the water" but still I agree), then during the second part of the loop (180 degree from downward toward zenith direction), you can still "anchor" in the water better and longer, thanks to the board still perpendicular (while if on the seabed you will start sliding sooner, forcing you to get up on the foil, which is in detriment of the pull you can get from a faster kite during its full rise toward the zenith). To be compared ...

Interesting post...


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