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Fastest production hydrofoils

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gmb13
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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby gmb13 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:50 am

WH Lithuania wrote:
gmb13 wrote:
C. The kites keep their performance a lot longer as the new speed system lines no longer shrink, which is the number one cause of loss of performance in the first few hours.

--
Gunnar
Hm.... you are saying that previous Ozone foil generations lost performance in first few hours! That makes me think there is high chance that there is also something in latest generation that also leads to fast performance degradation.
Yes. The speed system/mixer pulley lines on all kites pre R1v2 will start shrinking after a few hours use, which will lead to loss of performance, hence you need to lengthen them again. This is however the same for Flysurfer and Elf and F-One.

The the moment the R1V2 is the only kite on the market where the pulley lines wont shrink.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby gmb13 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:55 am

Bletti wrote:
Jollydriver wrote:
gmb13 wrote: The kites keep their performance a lot longer as the new speed system lines no longer shrink, which is the number one cause of loss of performance in the first few hours.
Does the Chrono V2 have a better speed system which doesn't shrink as much quickly? I know its not Ozone's highest performance foil kite anymore, but it would seem to be a better kite for me as a non-racer, at a better price.

JD
If I'm not mistaken, the tuneable speed system was added to the r1v2 but it is possible to install it on the r1v1 and chrono kites instead of the older non-tuneable speed system once it gets out of spec.
Yes. it can be retrofitted to your old kites too. You can order all the parts from your ozone dealer. The new Pro Tune speed system costs 99 Euros, and there is an upgrade kit for 110 Euros. If you just want the pulley lines they cost 15 euros.

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 1:37 pm

cnski wrote:Mossy- Can you post the prices for those foils? That would be great. Really interesting hearing about the gear progression. I hope we get to see some decent videos of the racing too.
They're about $2k USD for the race foil and their race boards are about $1k...so about the same price for a full setup that I paid 2 years ago for a Sword 2 and carbon board. You can get a product info sheet if you email pparmeggiani@gmail.com

gmb13 wrote:
Mossy 757 wrote:
WH Lithuania wrote:

Do you want to name your sources?

Cause A. They don't do hand out hundreds of cheap or free kites to the team and B. The kites don't blow out within a couple of months use. With exception of the test team no one has had the kites long enough to even have flown the kites long enough to make an observation like that.

C. The kites keep their performance a lot longer as the new speed system lines no longer shrink, which is the number one cause of loss of performance in the first few hours. The other brands mixer/speed pulley lines shrink fast under hard use.

--
Gunnar
A) No "source" per se, just internet armchair racer speculation, so basically everything I post on here is just for fun and idle conversation. I also didn't say hundreds of kites, but you can't expect me to believe that more than 1/2 the kites on the line at a tour stop were sold at full MSRP. I think it's important for people to realize that a company that can manufacture a product at volume and with better margins will be more likely to have sponsored riders using subsidized gear. That was the main point of what I wrote. Manufacturer sponsored teams have less to do with the outright performance of the kite and more to do with the business model of the company. That being said, the R1V2 is clearly the winning kite right now and Ozone has been at the forefront of kiteracing since the beginning, so I'm not trying to take anything away from them as a brand. I'm glad they hit a home run with this thing in terms of performance, it'll do good things for the sport.

B) My biggest concern with the kite is that the material is 30% lighter than their competitors, there's just a limit to how light you can make a kite before you start making compromises on durability. Given that Diablos have proven to be very delicate and the R1V2 is lighter weight cloth than the F-One, it stands to reason that they'd be just as delicate and likely more so. I've not heard of a blowout or a kite that's gone horribly out of tune due to canopy stress, but for the price of 2 months mortgage payment it's my opinion that a regular consumer is incurring an unreasonable amount of risk buying a kite that is on the extreme end of both the performance and material strength spectrum. I can't afford to pay an extra $600 USD for a kite that will need to be replaced 20% or 30% earlier than its competitor.

C) Any comments I've made about durability have not been meant to imply the speed systems...this is obviously the Achilles Heel for most foil kites, so if they've worked out a way to prevent bridles/speed system from shrinking then more power to them, I hope the other brands catch on. Do you know what they've done to create a control system that doesn't experience shrink? I thought this was just an assumption given the need to use spectra to run across pulleys.

D) The R1V1 was a total nightmare, complete misfire on the brand's part. I know the best riders in the world are doing well on the V2, but I've watched guys that I know to be better kite flyers struggle with the old R1's and it scared me off them. That might explain some of my unreasonable skepticism about the V2's...


I'm honestly not hating on them, I guess my point was to say "Why buy that Lotus Elise when this Mazda Miata will do 95% of the same stuff?"

Gunnar I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the R1V2 if you wanted to start a separate thread, I think you're one of the only regular posters here that has flown multiple sizes in a race setting.

-Tim

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby gmb13 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:45 pm

Mossy 757 wrote:
cnski wrote:Mossy- Can you post the prices for those foils? That would be great. Really interesting hearing about the gear progression. I hope we get to see some decent videos of the racing too.
They're about $2k USD for the race foil and their race boards are about $1k...so about the same price for a full setup that I paid 2 years ago for a Sword 2 and carbon board. You can get a product info sheet if you email pparmeggiani@gmail.com

gmb13 wrote:
Mossy 757 wrote:

Do you want to name your sources?

Cause A. They don't do hand out hundreds of cheap or free kites to the team and B. The kites don't blow out within a couple of months use. With exception of the test team no one has had the kites long enough to even have flown the kites long enough to make an observation like that.

C. The kites keep their performance a lot longer as the new speed system lines no longer shrink, which is the number one cause of loss of performance in the first few hours. The other brands mixer/speed pulley lines shrink fast under hard use.

--
Gunnar

B) My biggest concern with the kite is that the material is 30% lighter than their competitors, there's just a limit to how light you can make a kite before you start making compromises on durability.



C) Any comments I've made about durability have not been meant to imply the speed systems...this is obviously the Achilles Heel for most foil kites, so if they've worked out a way to prevent bridles/speed system from shrinking then more power to them, I hope the other brands catch on. Do you know what they've done to create a control system that doesn't experience shrink? I thought this was just an assumption given the need to use spectra to run across pulleys.




I'm honestly not hating on them, I guess my point was to say "Why buy that Lotus Elise when this Mazda Miata will do 95% of the same stuff?"

Gunnar I'd be curious to hear your thoughts on the R1V2 if you wanted to start a separate thread, I think you're one of the only regular posters here that has flown multiple sizes in a race setting.

-Tim
Hi Tim,

B) Of course a lighter material will not be as strong as a heavier cloth when it comes to tearing when getting caught on something or ground impact. However, the cloth on the R1V2 is just as long lasting in regards to UV exposure, stretch and porosity as the standard cloth. It was tested for quite a long time. So as long as you don't keep crashing it into things it will last just as long as a normal cloth in regards to performance


C) It's actually the new sleeved pulley lines. I tested them for Ozone for almost a full year. With over 120 Hours of use the Speed system stayed zeroed the entire time.


--
Gunnar

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby Mossy 757 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 6:56 pm

gmb13 wrote: C) It's actually the new sleeved pulley lines. I tested them for Ozone for almost a full year. With over 120 Hours of use the Speed system stayed zeroed the entire time.


--
Gunnar

Do you know what material that is? I have 2 kites that need their pulley lines replaced, if there's a better option than SK75 unsheathed Dyneema I'd love to use it.

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby gmb13 » Tue Sep 13, 2016 7:52 pm

Sorry Tim,

I don't know. You can order them from your Ozone dealer though.

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby foilonfoil » Wed Sep 14, 2016 6:22 am

gmb13 wrote: Yes. The speed system/mixer pulley lines on all kites pre R1v2 will start shrinking after a few hours use, which will lead to loss of performance, hence you need to lengthen them again. This is however the same for Flysurfer and Elf and F-One.

The the moment the R1V2 is the only kite on the market where the pulley lines wont shrink.

Gunnar
Do you make this stuff up - Where has there been any mention of Flysurfer Mixer/Pully Line shrinkage?

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby Andokite » Wed Sep 14, 2016 7:43 am

Hey, let's stick to this thread's title: "fastest production hydrofoils" :remybussi: :wink:

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby gmb13 » Wed Sep 14, 2016 4:16 pm

foilonfoil wrote:
gmb13 wrote: Yes. The speed system/mixer pulley lines on all kites pre R1v2 will start shrinking after a few hours use, which will lead to loss of performance, hence you need to lengthen them again. This is however the same for Flysurfer and Elf and F-One.

The the moment the R1V2 is the only kite on the market where the pulley lines wont shrink.

Gunnar
Do you make this stuff up - Where has there been any mention of Flysurfer Mixer/Pully Line shrinkage?

It's common knowledge. That's why you need to do a mixer test to zero the system. Remember that I used to work for flysurfer. Also there are a number of videos out about this, even from Armin. Be careful about your statements here.

--
Gunnar

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Re: Fastest production hydrofoils

Postby foilonfoil » Wed Sep 14, 2016 5:24 pm

gmb13 wrote:
foilonfoil wrote:
gmb13 wrote: Yes. The speed system/mixer pulley lines on all kites pre R1v2 will start shrinking after a few hours use, which will lead to loss of performance, hence you need to lengthen them again. This is however the same for Flysurfer and Elf and F-One.

The the moment the R1V2 is the only kite on the market where the pulley lines wont shrink.

Gunnar
Do you make this stuff up - Where has there been any mention of Flysurfer Mixer/Pully Line shrinkage?

It's common knowledge. That's why you need to do a mixer test to zero the system. Remember that I used to work for flysurfer. Also there are a number of videos out about this, even from Armin.

--
Gunnar
You specifically said "start shrinking after a few hours of use" and "same for FlySurfer and F-One" and "only kite on the market where pulley lines won't shrink".

All foil kites will have a little give and take over their whole bridle system and the mixer is where you compensate for this. Its not a problem, its the result of a shit load of lines and regular use. The Pulley lines on a FS are not what are being adjusted by a mixer test... If they were, as you know so well, they quick and easy to replace as is the rest of the bridle system on a FS due to LCL's and such.
gmb13 wrote: Be careful about your statements here.
Please!


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