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Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby ronnie » Mon Aug 29, 2022 7:43 am

Horst Sergio wrote:
Sun Aug 28, 2022 10:38 pm

In short, to me there are now 3 Main Categories:

1.0 “(Pure) Stabifoils” (core market till now)
2.0 “Stabilised Monofoils” (e.g. Triton T1, likely future market)
3.0 “Unstabilised / pure Monofoils” or “stabless” (what this topic was 90% about till here)
I think there is one more possible category.

The canard does work and the way it works has not been defined by the designer, but both wings lift, and it seems likely to me, that what happens when you increase the angle of attack (which also moves the foil forward relative to your centre of gravity) is that there becomes a higher % of the total lift from the rear wing and a lower % of total lift from the front wing.
It doesn't lend itself to becoming a monofoil, but the wings could be brought closer together, with one just in front of the mast and one just behind the mast (which would be 43cm front to back and 56cm wide for the 1300cm2 XXLW Zeeko canard - which is smaller than the Triton). The front wing would need to be high/low enough to avoid disturbing the flow on the rear wing, so somewhat of a bi-plane configuration?
Last edited by ronnie on Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby fluidity » Mon Aug 29, 2022 10:13 pm

The major issue with the biplane approach is that you double the tip vortices losses. Enclosed (joined) box wing designs bring this back down to 2 vortices but then you have drag from the joiners. Triton have had some success with release of their high reflex wing tips a few months after I linked Adrian Bowers work on this subject to the forum early last year, he has a great YouTube on mono wing design based on Ludwig Prandls second calculations paper which superceded his first paper that the aero industry relies on. To explain in the simplest of anologies, like Obi Wan teaching Luke about the Force, our ride is a disturbance in the flow, with leakage of this high underpressure sideways off the wing tips. Ludwig Prandtl's second paper addressed this, with the equivalent of birds relaxed finger tips angle that let's this pressure wash out into the undisturbed flow to the sides at minimal speed. The wingtip washout changes drag to acceleration. I wrote my own CAD generator software early this year to do it myself in my own designs.

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:05 pm

Hi,
yes I agree there are further foils as mulit lifting bi-planes or canards, but I just don't want to make it too complecated with any foil any single manufacturer ever has produced.
I just wanted to discuss here monofoils and unavoidable traditional foils with stabilisator and what's new and in my eyes pretty much exactly in between: Tritons T1
pressure-point-comparison.jpg
But as seen I turned the numbers around so behind 3.0 it is possible to add all those bi-planes and what not. With, as I also agree, as many extra vortices losses you prefer to travel with :wink:
So for now I would name it:

1.0 "Pure" or "stabless monofoil"
2.0 "stabilised monofoil"
3.0 "stabi foil"
4.0 "Quad" or "Multi vortex foils" :P

Understanding foils basic physics and placement of their pressure points to me helps a lot to see what can be done with them e.g. surfacing with a pure monofoils and why you can't do that with the others.

On the other hand it is pretty impressive how much you can do with a good mixture inbetween, as we till now only have the Triton T1 as a serial stabilised monofoil.
Till now I thought some tricks are strictly stabi foiling world as e.g. rodeo rides. But I learned maybe a stabilised monofoil can do it even better at least in some aspects.
T1 Caneri Man.jpg
T1 Caneri Man.jpg (103.16 KiB) Viewed 3975 times
I already finished writing my first three session test report about the T1 and will link it in the T1 topic, if Mischa has it on his hp and authorities allow it.
T1 Groove XS 108x40.jpg
T1 Groove XS 108x40.jpg (123.91 KiB) Viewed 3975 times
Oh and just another thing, I don't take my writings here to be so important that they have to be posted twice, so I would prefer if others do the same and don't fullquote my texts, Thank You
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby PugetSoundKiter » Sat Sep 03, 2022 3:44 pm

Horst Sergio wrote:
Sat Sep 03, 2022 1:05 pm
…and don't fullquote my texts, Thank You
k

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sun Sep 04, 2022 12:20 pm

The joy to pumpfoiling around obstacles; Two rounds compilation.
Monofoil-Pump-Session.jpg
Not yet a full minute but getting closer :D

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby nothing2seehere » Mon Sep 05, 2022 10:11 am

That's a useful diagram with the different overlaid profiles.

Explains what you read about the triton and people's experiences really well - if you describe it as an ultra short fuselage. It matches up well to the feedback between short and long fuselage on other brands - but at a greater extremity.

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Sun Oct 30, 2022 1:10 pm

@nothing2seehere:
Yes I think it is very important to understand a bit of the physics behind, especially where the load point goes with different setups, tells you a lot about how a foil behaves.

Three little stories about last experiences on the mono:

More and more impressed of how wide the windrange of one wingfoil equipment can be and pretty sure with a mono it is not worse, maybe even better:
Balz Müller long time ago said something similar as he can pump up a 4,5 m² in around 8 knts and ride in up to 45 knts. Well being not a pro with the heart of Balz for the around 8 knts I need my 5,2 m² but these days it happend again:
This time we even had two professional kite foilers (racer and freestyler) on the beach and later the freestyler in the water. As it happened more an more often in the past month, a big part of the time I was the only guy out and foiling, while a minimum of 10 wing and kite foilers have been on the beach as the wind was very low and gusty with lulls down to 4 knts. On the other end some month ago I was passed by a front with as the station said: close to 40 knts, with the exact same equipment, well in the top spike I remaind on the board for a moment, but no doupt as often done, up to 35 knts I can navigate without spending to much force. The great behaviour of an unstabilized monofoil here is, that when you get overoverpowered in a gust, just let the mono pop out of the water, slide it on the surface to control and reduce speed and then return into foil flight without any change of pressure point.
Also the sweet spot is awesome, in gusty 8 kts I use the wind to just get me on the mono and then pump around without wing. And for the 30 knts I also found a new game:

Till now I tought just a stabilised monofoil as the Triton is able to ride rodeo or even to do a Caneri Man:
Maybe I was wrong, as in the very powered winds I started to retry rodeo with the wing starting from the ground and it shows up that with the more direct feel of a wing, it could become possible to go allong flying rodeo for long distance.

Met one of the long time monofoilers at our lake in the water asking him if the boy with the kite is his son, that's what he said:
"Yes and he is on a (unstabilised) monofoil, right from the start, I just didn't tell him that something like stabis (training wheels) even exist :wink:
and now the secound day he starts riding long runs on the mono"
Motiviated by this, likely worlds first real mono only foiler, I will reinforce my plan to teach somebody foiling next spring right from the start with a mono, to not force him to learn it first the "wrong way"
but as this beginner is no more in the teens, I think I will give him a Triton with its super gentle takeoff behaviour.
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:36 pm

Hi ,
I am trying to retrive an excellent funny video of a guy stabless (,mono foil type) , and wonder if someone knows where to find it.

Something like 2 or 3 years ago.

Nice "decontracted" style, and he was doing amazing tricks, like sliding on water surface (exemple that i remember). I think he was riding a brm cloud (not greg dexler himself, i think he was from netherland, but not sure). I remeber he was also coming back to beach with a jump directly on the sand.

Please kindly help , i am frustrated not recover it.
:-?

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:49 pm

Regis-de-giens wrote:
Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:36 pm
Hi ,
I am trying to retrive an excellent funny video of a guy stabless (,mono foil type) , and wonder if someone knows where to find it.

Something like 2 or 3 years ago.

Nice "decontracted" style, and he was doing amazing tricks, like sliding on water surface (exemple that i remember). I think he was riding a brm cloud (not greg dexler himself, i think he was from netherland, but not sure). I remeber he was also coming back to beach with a jump directly on the sand.

Please kindly help , i am frustrated not recover it.
:-?

It is Øyvind (from Norway), he lives in Thailand, and is IMO the most progressive and talented foiler I have ever seen, stabless on both kitefoils and now also wingfoil :thumb:



8) Peter
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Regis-de-giens » Thu Nov 03, 2022 9:51 pm

Your a real bible Peter, thanks


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