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Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

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Denisesewa
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Denisesewa » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:17 pm

Sorry for sideways picture🤨

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Peter_Frank
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:27 pm

Sorry, it doesnt make any sense to me Denise :wink:

Meaning, I dont agree with the arrows shown....

Unless there is a huge sideways load on the mast (there is some, often, agree, but also zero at times), the mast can be placed 2 meters behind the board, or in front of the board, and your pitch balance and lever will be exactly the same.

If the mast was ultra thin just a superstiff wire, then you would agree with this, that it doesnt matter which way the wing is connected to the board, pitch balance will be exactly the same, right?
Meaning, think if you removed the mast totally from the picture, knowing wing and board was still connected, then the pitch arc would still be horizontal :D

Not easy to understand, and I know that many windfoilers dont understand this, and think the pitch balance point is where the mast meets the board.
It is not, it is only the "mechanical" stress point, nothing but that.

Sideways mast relative to the wing means a lot, maybe so much that it can change up and down on everything, that is possible.

If you remove the stab, and mount the wing further rear, you have to move the mast a lot forward on the board for balance, but only trying can tell for sure indeed.



8) Peter
Last edited by Peter_Frank on Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Denisesewa
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Denisesewa » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:41 pm

I think you misunderstood my meaning Peter,
If the mast is directly above center of effort the top of the mast must move forward and backward to change wing angle of attack, if the mast is rear of c of e the top of the mast moves slight more up and down to change angle of attack. I think the more up and down is easier to control, disregard the difference in stance each setting would require.
?

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:51 pm

Denisesewa wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 5:41 pm
I think you misunderstood my meaning Peter,
If the mast is directly above center of effort the top of the mast must move forward and backward to change wing angle of attack, if the mast is rear of c of e the top of the mast moves slight more up and down to change angle of attack. I think the more up and down is easier to control, disregard the difference in stance each setting would require.
?

If you think "mast more up and down" is key, then you would prefer the wing to be further forward, and not more rearward like you wrote in your first post?

But I still say it doesnt make any difference at all where the mast is relative to the wing, except for changing sideways and carving balance/stability.

The mast to the board point is not the point anything "turns" around regarding pitch.

Agree, difference in stance is not the issue here and not important, that was just an extra info to new readers/stabless riders :thumb:

8) Peter

Denisesewa
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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Denisesewa » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:05 pm

Yes, mast further rear of wing is what I meant, maybe bad choice of words in first post.

I have made a third wing from what I learned from the first two, bad weather here so not able to test yet.

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:14 pm

Denisesewa wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:05 pm
Yes, mast further rear of wing is what I meant, maybe bad choice of words in first post.

I have made a third wing from what I learned from the first two, bad weather here so not able to test yet.

Aaaah, cool, no matter for what reasons, we agree that ULX should not use the rearward wing position on his picture, but better use the more forward one :thumb:

8) Peter

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby ulx » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:27 pm

Thanks for your input guys! That's what I thought, too. So, I will change the fuselage position on the mast to get the wing in front of the mast and see how it works. I can't wait :-)

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Peter_Frank » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:32 pm

ulx wrote:
Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:27 pm
Thanks for your input guys! That's what I thought, too. So, I will change the fuselage position on the mast to get the wing in front of the mast and see how it works. I can't wait :-)

Have fun - just DOING it is amazing :thumb:

:D PF

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby ulx » Mon Feb 18, 2019 6:38 pm

Yeah I know. I will. Just thought I could save some time by picking the probably right position for the combo. Hope to try this week.

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Re: Monofoil or "riding stabless", setup and riding

Postby Horst Sergio » Mon Feb 18, 2019 8:08 pm

Hi, nice discussion,

to make it short I also agree to better and especially for beginning:
@ulx:
Put the wing more forward to have a bigger distance between center of lift and center of strut, which means for me more guidance in the yaw axis, which I think is the important point.

@Denisesewa:
So I agree with your conclusion, but as I also understand Peter:
If you keep your wing position respective to the board on the same position and just put the mast more foreward on its both ends, this just changes the yaw axis control.

As I wanted to test this influence since long, I prepared my gong foil with extra holes to move just the strut by 4 cm steps, but unfortunately haven't tested this feature yet. But with the M wing I had in the normal setting allready the experience that due to its pretty flat shape the yaw axis is already pretty weak, which can turn you (when riding switch) by itself into uncontrolled drifting (see Øyvind last 5 videos, links on page 15, and here:

That's why I am sure, that there is a "too much forward", especially for beginner and for example the picture linked by ulx, seems to be just to much.
Remember in my eyes monofoiling is not to make it as difficutl as possible, but most to beat drag and here the 8 cm more or less fuselage at constant diameter does not make too much different, but in control it could.

Nice to see more are thinking about setup, also chopped my Gong kite wing to see if it will improve.

@ulx:
Just remember to now put also the strut on the board conection full back at least for first try, as otherwise at the start the wing may lift to early and it will be hard to push it back under control, at least for me this has always be a bit of a starting problem with the very big wings.


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