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+1 Coleman

coleman wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:26 am

with my old 10m speed 4 lotus and my XLP wing on the alpine foil i was able to ride in 7-10kt days.....lulls to less than 5kts and gusts to 10kts. kite sits at zenith beautifully in almost no wind. if it hits the water its incredibly easy to relaunch in 5-7kts.

prob at 12m would be the money size for really light air for my weight.

Totally agree the speed 4 is great in light wind, and relaunch is unbelievable. So as you say in the 7-ish wind range it works great. I used one when first starting to foil, and never had to swim in!

Where I think Ultra (and probably other single struts now on market) differ is that you get the same kind of low end, but with a great deal more maneuverability. So to gybe or go downwind with s-turns will be a ton easier on the ultra vs speed4, since the kite moves so much faster, while you may not notice as much of a difference going in a straight line w stationary kite. But both will work great in the wind range. So depends on your type of riding.

If you're looking at the lightest possible winds, I don't think relaunch makes any difference because you have no chance to relaunch (unless there are big lulls).

When it gets to the lightest winds, you need to go up in size. When I hit the low end limit of my 18m Sonic2, it's because I'm looping over and over and it still doesn't have enough power to lift me out of the water.

Also, when you get to the light wind limit, you need a setup that goes upwind well because the apparent wind shifts in front of you so much. If the wind really is 6 knots, even to ride 90 degrees to the true wind at 10-12 knots board speed, the apparent wind angle shift is huge. At that speed and heading, your apparent wind angle would be only 30 degrees. When I'm at the real low end, I'm riding upwind hard the whole time, but never make any progress upwind.

Although all of this is just to get an extra knot or two. That extra 1-2 knots makes all the difference, so it's really hard to put a wind speed number on it.

davesails7 wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:55 pm

If you're looking at the lightest possible winds, I don't think relaunch makes any difference because you have no chance to relaunch (unless there are big lulls).

When it gets to the lightest winds, you need to go up in size. When I hit the low end limit of my 18m Sonic2, it's because I'm looping over and over and it still doesn't have enough power to lift me out of the water.

Also, when you get to the light wind limit, you need a setup that goes upwind well because the apparent wind shifts in front of you so much. If the wind really is 6 knots, even to ride 90 degrees to the true wind at 10-12 knots board speed, the apparent wind angle shift is huge. At that speed and heading, your apparent wind angle would be only 30 degrees. When I'm at the real low end, I'm riding upwind hard the whole time, but never make any progress upwind.

Although all of this is just to get an extra knot or two. That extra 1-2 knots makes all the difference, so it's really hard to put a wind speed number on it.

So true Dave

Relaunch is irrelevant in terms of riding the lightest of winds, as no chance whatsoever with any kite to relaunch down here, you HAVE to keep going and the kite up, or it is a swim back in

Will also add, that here a bigger wing has its advantages as you shift the angle back up being able to foil with less power and speed, but on cost of apparent wind thus power so there is a limit.

Regarding size, we apparently disagree somewhat, as IMO the 15 and 12 m2 has almost the same peak power when looped as an 18 (a lot less when riding though) - but most never use the smaller ones in marginal winds with a bigger wing/board (around here, as those having an 18 are only racers, noone else with bigger wings got these sizes) so not that many who has experience.
It might also be foilkite specific, yes, some dont give a lot more peak in the faster sizes, others do.
It doesnt matter, the difference in peak power is small at least, compared to the "riding" power.

Your point is spot on:
Because we are pinching the wind window to the extreme in 5-6 knots, the high aspect racefoil kites are the only ones that can go this low without losing ground yes, lower AR foilkites and LEI kites dont have a chance and will either not be able to foil at all (probably no chance of a waterstart as not sufficient peak power), or go downwind only.

PF

Peter_Frank wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:38 pm

Regarding size, we apparently disagree somewhat, as IMO the 15 and 12 m2 has almost the same peak power when looped as an 18 (a lot less when riding though) - but most never use the smaller ones in marginal winds with a bigger wing/board (around here, as those having an 18 are only racers, noone else with bigger wings got these sizes) so not that many who has experience.

Yes, I agree that the 15m has almost as much power as the 18m when you loop it, but I think the 18m gets you something, and sometimes that's the difference of riding or not riding. I am only talking foil kites though, i don't think larger inflatables are as much of a benefit. The main reason I have the 18m is not to get out earlier, but to ride fast and powered in 8-12 kts.

I've never tried a bigger wing, but would like to give it a go sometime in extreme light wind to see the difference. The new race foils are bigger and flatter so can foil at lower speeds, but I don't feel that it has noticeably increased my low end.

I think the apparent wind angle is a good way to roughly determine how much wind there is. If you think it's blowing 4 knots and you're going upwind at 12 knots on a low aspect inflatable, it's probably blowing more like 8 knots. The physics just don't work out.

True Dave - this is why talking about low wind "numbers" are bull, eventhough we all do it ha haa

Of course the 18 is way better for riding okay powered on the absolute lower limit, so the often used choice.

But some freeriders choose say a 15 m2 instead, and a bigger wing, best if still okay high AR and not the fat bastards.

Quite important IMO, as when you pinch the window to the extreme, every little cent you can pinch out of the L/D from both the racefoil and the wing, matters hugely.

PF

Peter_Frank wrote: ↑

Thu Aug 31, 2017 1:38 pm

Because we are pinching the wind window to the extreme in 5-6 knots, the high aspect racefoil kites are the only ones that can go this low without losing ground yes, lower AR foilkites and LEI kites dont have a chance and will either not be able to foil at all (probably no chance of a waterstart as not sufficient peak power), or go downwind only.

It is quite rare but I am not with you on this one. I agree that in light winds (say 7 knots) it is beneficial to have a race kite which improves the traction angle (that drastically degrades in low wind). This is true for speed of the ride, ok. But not for riding lower limit (in term of just planning and stay upwind with a hydrofoil). For this absolute low end ride limit, the main design factors (on top of line length) are:
1- kite weight
2- kite agility

It would be a pain to detail the comparisons I expereienced for 1 year, but for example this summer when the wind dropped lower , we were often only two riders with medium AR and light kites in l'almanarre (France) around 15th of August were dozens of skilled foil riders are hardly waiting to ride (with perf kites, strutless LEI, and even a champion racer shool in the area); I only have an average level but fairly good in hyperlight winds for years and can tell you there is an significant difference, while race kites like sonic2 hardly stays in the air and do not provide enough power during the waterstart loop(s) due to a bit of over-flying at the internal wing (i do not know if the term is exact sorry, just as if it was too sheeted-in).

Maybe hard to convince you but you could maybe try to test a Pulsion (27gr cloth if posssible) to give your feeling about what I try to demonstrate here.

By the way Airush Ultra is a good light wind kite (I love single struts...) but far below in term of low end limit.

How much does your Pulsion 12m weigh, Regis? Also, are you still flying it with 30m lines in uber light winds?

I agree that the relaunch is irrelevant in very light wind condition too.

I personally use a R1V2 15m with a Taaroa Sword RS for very light wind condition. I used to use a Chrono V2 18m before but I found the R1V2 15m has much more power and speed than the Chrono V2 18m at the end of the loop. This may be due in part because the R1V2 is much thinner than the Chrono V2 and therefore when you dive it in the first part of the loop it has less drag and get more speed.

Pulsion 12m is 1.650bkg in 27gr. Pulsion 15m is 1.9 kg. And I save 0.5 knots low end (But much more power)
Yes approx 30m line for both.