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Re: how long is too long?!

Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 2:50 am
by Kamikuza
What's wrong with going slowly?

Re: how long is too long?!

Posted: Sat May 19, 2018 9:26 am
by Peter_Frank
edt wrote:
Sat May 19, 2018 2:31 am
I think the best answer is just go try it. People are always asking in this forum about what's the "right" line length. Wouldn't it suck if you took the advice of some random here on the forum who told you "such and such length is the longest never go above it" and only figured out years later that you actually liked longer lines?

So true, best advice here :thumb:

But I still find it interesting what others experience when going even longer, as apparently most or all here havent done it really, just speculations about how it would work, or only a freak day now and then with these and not daily experience :-?

As said before, I havent tried it myself so can not answer.
Why havent I ? Hmmm, maybe because when out in 6-8 knots and it suddenly gets too low, one stops.
So should be done in advance, simply to "try" and see how it works, for a reasonable amount of marginal wind sessions, to know the effect.
It could also be a lot simpler, namely that the feel of a tad longer lines when riding in a bit less wind is the very same, so easy to switch without having to re-learn timing fully, and you still win the power and duration effects :naughty:
Besides still being easy to launch in most spots, whereas longer can be tricky but isnt it just out of old habits we think so ?

I can say one thing for sure, I am using 26-27 m lines for all winds and sizes when powered in the sweetspot, that is simply a personal choice and nothing special about that.

But when light and marginal wind, using 30 meter lines instead, maybe only 3 meters longer, makes a HUGE difference in every positive aspect whatsoever, no downsides IMO :D

It is not just a "tad" better, but so much one wont believe it.

Thus the question, does even longer make the same extreme difference, or will the return start diminishing like slowboat proposes and not really worth it ?
Or something in between ?

The extra long lines might also work in a very different way on LEI kites and fast foil kites and really big foilkites, which might also give some confusion when shared on the net and not experienced personally.

30 m has the huge effect over 25-27 m on LEI and fast foilkites, whereas it is more difficult to say about really big foilkites (18 and 20 m2) as only racers use these in general because they dont start earlier and overpowered for freeride fun, but way better up/downwind.
And as they dont want long lines because they hardly never ride so low powered and have a different riding pattern also, experiences are a lot more limited on these sizes.

But how DO say 35 m lines really work, compared to 30 m and most kitefoilers "normal" 24-27 m when LEIs at least ?

I think I will rig a bar with some older 9-10 m extensions I had back in the days, on a 26 m bar and try.
This can show how it feels right away, but I have to change to a 30 m on the same days, for "power and benefit" comparisons.

Norcom havent found any advantages though, going from 30 to 33 with an 11 m2 tube.
Others ?

The question is one of the best IMO, "How long is too long ?" eventhough of course it can only be "How long do you find is too long ?" :thumb:

8) PF

Re: how long is too long?!

Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:18 pm
by Peter_Frank
I rode with 35 meter lines today, with a 12 m2 Storm Voyager Limited Edition (strutless LEI).

Wind around 7 knots, maybe 8 in puffs.

I could not compare neck and neck as the sun was setting, so only my "feel":

Timing is a bit different - but maybe just the same as from 26 to 30 which is also different, but one gets used to it.

Looping feels a bit odd somehow, difficult to say why, but because it flies so "high" it feels different, and you somehow have to depower the kite more than usual in order to really gain from the long powerstroke or you will choke the kite.

One positive thing was, that you could dive the kite and get a huge long powerstroke, and fly it up again instead of looping - works mostly better when waterstarting and getting up foiling, because your angle to the wind gives you more power.

The other advantage is when carving in really light wind, you get more power on the way out of the turn so easier to keep foiling (which is difficult in marginal wind).

BUT, it somehow felt a bit hmmm, "sluggish" ?
And it really feels like the lines got more drag so the kite does not accelerate as fast - could be my imagination though :wink:

Cant say for sure as I havent compared neck and neck with 30 m lines, but my first take would be that there is no significant advantage when beyond 30-32 meter, and it does not feel as good and not the same prompt response.

Just my very first take on these - will see if I get the chance to compare neck and neck one day.

But I think I will stay with 26-27 m for normal sweetspot riding, and 30-31 m for light and marginal winds, and NOT longer.

Of course, not being used to 35 m might be the reason I did not feel any advantages, but a bit "odd" instead :roll:
If I ride these just as often as 30 m lines (which are used A LOT), I might get used to them, I dont know...

Just my first observations - have others gotten any experience since this thread started ?

8) PF

Re: how long is too long?!

Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 6:45 pm
by haare
Depends where you launch. In our lake 18m is bit on the long site. But if I had wide beach as a launch site I would put 30m lines to my largest kite.

Re: how long is too long?!

Posted: Sun May 27, 2018 11:42 pm
by Regis-de-giens
plummet wrote:
Fri May 18, 2018 8:06 pm
I'm not sold on longer lines unless you need to get above a wind shadow. The extra line drag typically negates the extra power you might get.
If we are actually talking about the "waterstart, foiling-up and just stay upwind" I do not agree with you , sorry. Hydrofoil need so few traction when up that the waterstart is often the showstopper . Longer line will provide you more pulling time (and/or larger loop) to get up and accelerate up to foiling speed. While line drag is not a real problem during waterstart if their length remains reasonnable (limit depending on kite design but in the range of 30-40 meters max IMO).

Side note : Foilkite will "accept" less line length due to lower rear line tension (hence curvature, hence higher AoA imposed by rear line drag).

To fix ideas, I would say that below 5-6 knots waterstart is not feasible without at least 25m lines for a standard weight rider.

Re: how long is too long?!

Posted: Mon May 28, 2018 3:50 am
by Foil
I experimented with 29mtr lines 2 days ago in very light winds, maybe 7 knts.
Pop up from the water was very much enhanced, although when I tried my preferred method of looping the kite to get up in very light conditions then this did not go well as the kite just felt slow and unwilling to produce any power when asked to turn sharply and scoop up some instant power for that quick pull up which then normally requires another loop in the other direction to keep the momentum going, but using the longer lines just ruined the snappy loops possible with shorter lines,
However the longer power stroke ensured I popped up anyways so it did not matter, although It played on my mind as the loop method was so reliable before I changed line length,
Sineing the kite felt laboured , and when it came to turningl I could feel the kite being so slow to respond I had to have a few rethinks and straighten back up from my initial carve as the kite was not staying with me and I could feel slack lines about to be a problem, and sure enough even after carving hard upwind to pull some power on before the turn the kite would not loop round fast enough to keep the lines tight which resulted in me touching down and then sticking,as the kite was then too slow to generate enough power to unstick as I was on toeside and not able to head upwind tightly enough to pull some slack out of the lines,
Hey no, I guess I really do need to learn flying step rounds so this might be less of a problem,
I returned to the beach and reduced the line length to 26mtr which improved the feel for me but not enough to make me comfortable in the gubes, so another reduction down to 24 MTR made things a lot better and my kite was back to its normal snappy response, although the loss of power was very noticeable on the starts,
I will keep a set of 24 and 26 MTR lines with me all the time now to get more practice using the longer lines, even 2mtrs extra length makes a big difference to me in very light airs,
Maybe the difference to getting out or just getting frustrated.