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trimless bar setup for racing?

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rynhardt
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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby rynhardt » Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:33 am

BraCuru wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:50 am
flaps1111 wrote:
Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:15 pm
everything is done from de depower sistem and I can get a huge range from my kites.
You would have physically 1m range of trim with the system i am testing.
I believe that it is 2-3 times more than on your present race bar correct?
and all achieved without any rollers, swivels, trimming line, cleat. Physically no parts on 4 lines. Zero. Even no stainless steel ring. Just 4 lines, bar and bar's stopper.
The depower is located on a harness. That's a trick :idea:

I believe that we have been locked in a box for years by an idea of chicken loop adopted from windsurfing.
For many riders it is hard to imagine control bars without CL as some of them have seen them their entire life.
Why not to think outside the box and make this gear cheaper, safer and more reliable?

The system I am testing is aimed for racers and advanced riders by now.
I will share details in July.
Sounds fascinating! I've been running a BRM style trimless setup the last few years.
Do you still have a Y connection above the bar stopper or do you run both front lines through the bar?

If you have the trim system on the harness then I suppose you would need a full harness release to release the kite? something like a parachute harness quick release.

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby evan » Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:41 am

BraCuru wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:50 am
Does it have a quick release?


With the newer race kites and as my progression advances I use powerline trim less and less with a very short quick release, 600mm bar throw and the option to trim the backlines while riding. Backline trim is not as fast/precise as the normal race trim with cleat and pulleys that you can adjust during a race, but good for trimming to changing wind conditions between races.

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby BraCuru » Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:31 pm

rynhardt wrote:
Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:33 am
Do you still have a Y connection above the bar stopper or do you run both front lines through the bar?
Yes, Y lines over the stopper. One line goes through a bar.
If you have the trim system on the harness then I suppose you would need a full harness release to release the kite? something like a parachute harness quick release.
Negative. There is no harness release at all.
evan wrote:Does it have a quick release?
Yes, it does.

Collecting all my answers I know it sounds very weird, correct?
It proves my believe that we have been boxed for years.
With the newer race kites and as my progression advances I use powerline trim less and less with a very short quick release, 600mm bar throw and the option to trim the backlines while riding. Backline trim is not as fast/precise as the normal race trim with cleat and pulleys that you can adjust during a race, but good for trimming to changing wind conditions between races.
Exactly.
Modern foil kites combined with short lines deliver new experiences.
Once I started to use short lines I noticed that I do not touch the depower.
This is my average choice with Soul 15m:
- lines 25m in winds below 6kts
- lines 17m in winds 6-15kts
- lines 12m in winds 10-20kts
- lines 9m in winds 15-25kts.

It will be possible to fit the flag-out in my system. However the design is tested without the flag-out - just for racers and advanced foil kite riders.
Flag-out is the must for the inflatables.
Flag-out for foilkites - I do not like it too much. Not sure that the racers like it too.
The flag-out in my system will be fitted without any bungee line. Despite of this all lines will be tight. The flag-out line will be adjusted manually in the same way line the trimming of main line.

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby Macster » Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:37 am

Looking forward to seeing it. My wife is a patent attorney in Australia if you have some decent innovations you want to protect. Be warned, it's not cheap though... $10k just for Australian protection...

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby BraCuru » Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:22 am

Macster wrote:
Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:37 am
Looking forward to seeing it. My wife is a patent attorney in Australia if you have some decent innovations you want to protect. Be warned, it's not cheap though... $10k just for Australian protection...
Thank you but there is nothing special in the design I am testing.
I believe that a dozen of designers testing a similar system now. For sure another dozen of racers do the same.

The same as it was with the idea of a double tube leading edge in 2011.
I had this idea to reduce a drag in the race inflatables. I thought it would be a decent innovation for racers.
Contacted Cabrinha, RRD and North and asked them if they would be interested in this:
Image
It appeared that Cabrinha and RRD had already done such things and they had given up due to some difficulties.

I hope that this time the idea of trimless bar would be more successful :)
Or maybe I am too enthusiastic again?

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby peppedurso » Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:32 am

I hope 2020 would be the year in which we can start to see some innovations. We still use harness that are basically the same since 30 years, plus the come from windsurfing. Hard shells and sliding rope at least marked a step up in the wave game. New mystic stealth bar, allowing to use the fixed central loop, looks really interesting.
It’s time for the kite designer to innovate, seeing veeeery slow innovations in the last 6/8 years. Obviously kites are tuned up during this time but no big changes. Surfboards changed quite a lot (either technology and shapes), foiling opened new horizons, now we need better kites!

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby davesails7 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:49 pm

Gunnar had a video recently that showed he doesn't have a trim setup on his 21m R1V3 for racing. He said he wasn't using the trim, so he took it off. The next session I tried to not use the trim and didn't work for me at all! I definitely need some trim to go upwind with a powered kite (e.g. 15m in 15+ knots).

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby BraCuru » Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:05 pm

davesails7 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:49 pm
The next session I tried to not use the trim and didn't work for me at all! I definitely need some trim to go upwind with a powered kite (e.g. 15m in 15+ knots).
I guess you were on long lines, correct?

I have stopped using the depower once I've started to use short lines.
Soul 15m on 9-12m lines works perfect in 15-20kts without touching depower for me (80kg).
peppedurso wrote: We still use harness that are basically the same since 30 years, plus the come from windsurfing.
Correct.
Mystic Stealth bar looks great but it is still the evolution IMO.
The same idea where a quick release is attached to each control bar.
Why not to make a quick release in a harness?
Just one QR for all kites inside a kiter's quiver :idea:
Control bars would be cheaper and then the industry might think about standardisation of such QR for all kites.

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby davesails7 » Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:44 pm

BraCuru wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:05 pm
I guess you were on long lines, correct?
Nah, I'm on 13m lines with 15m kite. I just cant get the right body position going hard upwind without pulling the depower a few inches.

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Re: trimless bar setup for racing?

Postby downunder » Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:24 am

BraCuru wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:05 pm
davesails7 wrote:
Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:49 pm
The next session I tried to not use the trim and didn't work for me at all! I definitely need some trim to go upwind with a powered kite (e.g. 15m in 15+ knots).
I guess you were on long lines, correct?

I have stopped using the depower once I've started to use short lines.
Soul 15m on 9-12m lines works perfect in 15-20kts without touching depower for me (80kg).
peppedurso wrote: We still use harness that are basically the same since 30 years, plus the come from windsurfing.
Correct.
Mystic Stealth bar looks great but it is still the evolution IMO.
The same idea where a quick release is attached to each control bar.
Why not to make a quick release in a harness?
Just one QR for all kites inside a kiter's quiver :idea:
Control bars would be cheaper and then the industry might think about standardisation of such QR for all kites.

True,

but the variety is a spice of life.

Even cars have different seat belt mechanism, for example, I hate my Volvo style release :)

Nothing is stopping advanced users from making the setup they like. Not so easy with some other sports tho.


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