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Moses 2019-2020

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grigorib
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Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/101/105cm masts with 637/420 695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Moses 590/647/330 $690, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Tue May 21, 2019 6:52 pm

Dave K wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 1:30 pm
...
Baseline 749. Length 749 cm. Weight ~900grams. Price - discontinued
Moses 710. Length 710 cm. Weight ~850 grams. Mast position - 20 mm forward from 749. Price $360usd from Mackite
Stringfellow 743. Length 743 cm. Weight ~720 grams. Mast position - 40 mm forward from 749. Price $260usd direct from Jim
(Correct me if I’m wrong on any of this)
...
Couple of comments
- 710 has mast placed forward by 13mm (106-93mm measured hole to hole) compared to 749, but also stabilizer is closer to mast by 27mm which is important counterpoint and I'm not sure yet how it changes the balance (or into which side) compared to 749
- I started calling my 743 new name 743v1 and I'll call later version 743v2. Mine cost $300, I assume shipping makes difference. :) Jim does amazing job and I admire his creativity and works!

Neither 749 nor 743 fit into my foil bag though so I’d stick to 710 as most compact version until Moses hopefully releases 850-1000 sq.cm wing for 647 fuselage and then I’d give up on surf setup completely

However, the benefit of moved mast is awesome (especially for fixed hole boards), just as weight and cost of Stringy’s version and it’ll be useful for Dwarfcraft Micro riders too, due to track placement difference.

Last Saturday I rode 683s/710/450/105 and I had to move my feet forward by 2” compared to 683s/749/483/91. I only wonder which one of the three changes caused it (or more than one) and I’ll know in 10 days the latest unless we get good local winds before then.

max
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby max » Tue May 21, 2019 11:02 pm

grigorib wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:52 pm


Last Saturday I rode 683s/710/450/105 and I had to move my feet forward by 2” compared to 683s/749/483/91. I only wonder which one of the three changes caused it (or more than one) and I’ll know in 10 days the latest unless we get good local winds before then.
I was wondering about the two masts.

The 91 has a rearward lean when placed on its base standing upright (the fuse remains parallel to the floor). This should move the centre of effort rearward.

Does the 105 have any lean?

cwood
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby cwood » Wed May 22, 2019 12:39 am

tkaraszewski wrote:
Mon May 20, 2019 5:47 pm
Anyone know a source in the USA that actually has the Havok wing/stabilizer in stock? I don't feel like making a bunch of phone calls, I just want to click "buy" on a website somewhere. Silent Sports in Canada I think will ship to the US but they show the wings as out-of-stock.
I got them from Silent. Love the setup.

grigorib
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Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/101/105cm masts with 637/420 695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Moses 590/647/330 $690, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Wed May 22, 2019 1:21 am

max wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 11:02 pm
grigorib wrote:
Tue May 21, 2019 6:52 pm


Last Saturday I rode 683s/710/450/105 and I had to move my feet forward by 2” compared to 683s/749/483/91. I only wonder which one of the three changes caused it (or more than one) and I’ll know in 10 days the latest unless we get good local winds before then.
I was wondering about the two masts.

The 91 has a rearward lean when placed on its base standing upright (the fuse remains parallel to the floor). This should move the centre of effort rearward.

Does the 105 have any lean?
They both have a slight lean and 105 should be mounted 7mm forward (measured by trailing edge of mast plate) to get the wing into exact same spot as 91.
Attachments
3D9F86A2-F074-4430-92C5-39AEB425C300.jpeg

max
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby max » Wed May 22, 2019 1:55 am

grigorib wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:21 am


They both have a slight lean and 105 should be mounted 7mm forward (measured by trailing edge of mast plate) to get the wing into exact same spot as 91.

so that would suggest that the 450 actually adds more lift/ front foot pressure if you have to stand an extra 2" forward.

Does that sound correct?

maybe not as I just noticed your comparison was between two different fuses.

683s/710/450/105 and 683s/749/483/91

grigorib
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Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/101/105cm masts with 637/420 695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Moses 590/647/330 $690, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Wed May 22, 2019 2:01 am

max wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:55 am
grigorib wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 1:21 am


They both have a slight lean and 105 should be mounted 7mm forward (measured by trailing edge of mast plate) to get the wing into exact same spot as 91.

so that would suggest that the 450 actually adds more lift/ front foot pressure if you have to stand an extra 2" forward.

Does that sound correct?

maybe not as I just noticed your comparison was between two different fuses.

683s/710/450/105 and 683s/749/483/91
Maybe not :) as mast and stabilizer and fuselage were different but one thing for sure was more forward stance. In 10 say I’ll ride same setup with 91cm mast and will try replacing one component at a time

trod27
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby trod27 » Wed May 22, 2019 3:25 am

I rode my 683s/710/450/91 on DC 42" with mast all the way back for only a hour first time ever. It felt good, but wind was dying so I came in. Been raining ever since:)
I was riding in same foot position as 633 with same set up. My front foot is right behind third hole from front.
I rode the 633 on the same set up for 3 days and it rode the same as 749/483.
My guess is there is no difference in foot pressure. I hope the weather clears and I can ride again this weekend.

grigorib
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Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/101/105cm masts with 637/420 695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Moses 590/647/330 $690, 80cm alu mast $260
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Wed May 22, 2019 4:21 am

trod27 wrote:
Wed May 22, 2019 3:25 am
I rode my 683s/710/450/91 on DC 42" with mast all the way back for only a hour first time ever. It felt good, but wind was dying so I came in. Been raining ever since:)
I was riding in same foot position as 633 with same set up. My front foot is right behind third hole from front.
I rode the 633 on the same set up for 3 days and it rode the same as 749/483.
My guess is there is no difference in foot pressure. I hope the weather clears and I can ride again this weekend.
I think my 633 takes slightly forward foot position compared to 683s.

If you get a chance to do 633/710/450/91 with DC 42” it’d be cool to know if foot position stays the same

alowishus
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby alowishus » Wed May 22, 2019 6:15 am

Based on appearances, and I haven't seen the 450 in person, but it seems like the 450 stabilizer is kind of like a slightly elongated SS 42cm hoverglide wing.
Same chord length (85mm), turned up winglets, rounded tips, but longer so slightly higher aspect (6.2 vs 5.3).
Slightly difference profile etc., but all in all, looks very similar...

grigorib
Very Frequent Poster
Posts: 2474
Joined: Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:12 pm
Kiting since: 2009
Local Beach: OBX; Clinton Lake, IL; Lake Michigan; La Ventana, SPI; Tawas, MI
Gear: Kites: Slingshot Rally 5/7/9/11m, SST 5m, Turbine 9m, Flysurfer Speed4 10m standard, Peter Lynn Venom II ARC 16m

Boards: Spleene RIP 37, Flysurfer Radical6 138, Flysurfer Flydoor5 XL, Slingshot/Moses 80/82/91/101/105cm masts with 637/420 695/425 590/330 679/450 wingsets, 36" Woody, Slingshot Dwarfcraft Micro 3'6" 2019-2020, MBS Comp 95x

For sale: Moses 590/647/330 $690, 80cm alu mast $260
.
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Re: Moses 2019

Postby grigorib » Thu May 23, 2019 12:03 am

So I reported few days back that on the same board my 683s/710/450/105 needed stance 2" forward compared to 683s/749/483/91.
I was lucky to get some winds today, rode by myself so here's what I did and what effect changes had:

0. to start with I put back 91cm mast for all 3 below trials. Not my preferred length for deep water but that's what I rode 683s with for two weeks back in April on OBX trip
1. 683s/710/450/91 felt same as 683s/710/450/105. So it's not a mast question (even though 105cm mast needs to be placed 7mm forward compared to 91cm to have wing in same position, it actually mounts slightly different, so it was about 5mm forward - consider it the same)
2. I replaced fuselage with 749. 683s/749/450/91 felt very similar to 683s/710/450/91 - just as much front foot pressure, maybe a tiny bit different feeling overall, but barely noticeable. So my conclusion is that 13mm forward mast position on 710 is equalized by 27mm more forward stabilizer. But I like 710 very much since it's compact.
3. My 483 stabilizer is getting wingtips repaired so I couldn't replace 450 with 483. What I did instead is I put 710 fuselage back and rode 683s/710/450/91 but I shimmed stabilizer to point it up using washer (took the washer from under mast-fuselage bolt. It felt amazing - my foot position was back where it was and whole setup rode smooth and fast.

What remains is to try 683s/710/483/91 when I get 483 back and compare it to 683s/710/450/91 (without shim).
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